Free will in the simplest sense - Christianity agrees with you too.

(October 24, 2011 at 9:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: Does stuff like that actually work for you?

It works for me and the majority of philosophers, who you, without reason of course, dismiss.

That works for the majority of philosophers? Somehow I doubt it Frodo. You probably should too.

"Without reason of course"......Let's try this again. Evidence for the existence of god? When that's settled we can wax on about the specifics of his glorious creation and how free will was (or wasn't) set up. There is no fortress of philosophy Frodo, and I really wish the faithful would just drop it. There's something respectable about faith. There's nothing respectable about deceiving yourself or others, even if it's unintentional.

(October 24, 2011 at 9:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: Sigh. You need no power whatsoever to invalidate free will beyond the ability to see the future. A very powerful "precognitive" human being would nullify free will. If the future can be known it is written. There is no free will when the road leads only one way. You don't have to be an omnipotent creator god, if you could only see five minutes into the future then it would safe to say that for at least the next five minutes there is no such thing as free will. End of.

I don't see anything to support Platinga's assertions whatsoever regarding free will. All I see is bullshit from the first letter to the last Frodo. Does stuff like that actually work for you?

Again, knowing how someone will act doesn't change that they had a choice to act that way, or not. If you created them to act that way, then no they had no choice. If you created them so they could act one way or another, and you knew which way it would be, it doesn't mean you created them to make that choice, if they had equal opportunity to make either choice. It means you chose to create a person who would have certain opportunities to make choices, and he chose to use those opportunities to make specific choices of his own preference. Does that mean he had no free will? No it does not.

If you know that a person will be on the corner of 3rd and Main at 3pm on Friday. If this is your gift, you're never wrong. That man has no choice does he. 3pm Friday he'll be there. GG Free Will. If the future is written the choices have already been made. It doesn't matter if you personally are privvy to the data. No one has to interfere, or even have the power to interfere or control. It doesn't matter how many "choices" you make everyday. It's gone, nada, eroded to nothing. This is so unbelievably simple that I know you understand and simply can't accept it because it ran all over your dogma.

Precognition invalidates free will in any form. They are incompatible concepts. There is absolutely nothing that one can say to tie the two together and maintain the integrity of both.

Here's a common objection to precognitive abilities (works equally well for people or gods)

If a precog see's a terrible disaster, ending in the deaths of many many people, but does nothing to try and avoid this, they are implicated in the event. On the other hand, this could lead to cassandra syndrome, whereby you can predict but you are "cursed" so that none would listen. This is a common theme in greek mythology, hilariously it's pretty common in christianity as well. Hellenized christians. Long story short, when the "inevitable happens" someone is at fault, either the precog or those that didn't listen, but either way you go no one has the choice of averting the disaster, if precognition is possible. These waters are muddy because it's an exercise in thought and imagination, with nothing in the real world to back any of it up.

Christians, christian theology, and christian philosophy (apologetics) have nothing to offer that the greeks haven't already covered. Not only that, they did it with more flair, more style, more depth, and a better understanding of the entire enterprise. Importantly, they did it first.

(@OP: He didn't. I probably already said that, but it's worth saying until people stop asking these sorts of questions, even if it's only a rhetorical device)

(October 24, 2011 at 9:44 am)Rhythm Wrote: If you know that a person will be on the corner of 3rd and Main at 3pm on Friday. If this is your gift, you're never wrong. That man has no choice does he. 3pm Friday he'll be there. GG Free Will. If the future is written the choices have already been made. It doesn't matter if you personally are privvy to the data. No one has to interfere, or even have the power to interfere or control. It doesn't matter how many "choices" you make everyday. It's gone, nada, eroded to nothing. This is so unbelievably simple that I know you understand and simply can't accept it because it ran all over your dogma.

Precognition invalidates free will in any form. They are incompatible concepts. There is absolutely nothing that one can say to tie the two together and maintain the integrity of both.

First of all, this is a false analogy. God isn't a precog. He knows the future because He exists outside of time and everything from beginning to end is in front of Him. He is also not bound by the future. He can, at any time, modify whatever He wants, and change the scenerio to give His creatures different choices. Some things are set in stone, such as judgement day. Others are more fluid. Do you think God involves Himself in whether you eat wheaties or cheerios? Some things are determined but not everything. In any moment, God is capable of offering His creatures significant freedom without pushing them towards one choice or another.

(October 24, 2011 at 9:44 am)Rhythm Wrote: If a precog see's a terrible disaster, ending in the deaths of many many people, but does nothing to try and avoid this, they are implicated in the event. On the other hand, this could lead to cassandra syndrome, whereby you can predict but you are "cursed" so that none would listen. This is a common theme in greek mythology, hilariously it's pretty common in christianity as well. Hellenized christians. Long story short, when the "inevitable happens" someone is at fault, either the precog or those that didn't listen, but either way you go no one has the choice of averting the disaster, if precognition is possible. These waters are muddy because it's an exercise in thought and imagination, with nothing in the real world to back any of it up.

God isn't responsible for His creatures choices, His creatures are. Neither is God going to alleviate their responsibility for making those choices. Your big assumption is that trial and hardship are incompatible with His planning. God can use the good and the evil that His creatures do for the greater good. The freewill choice that they have is more important.

(October 24, 2011 at 9:44 am)Rhythm Wrote: Christians, christian theology, and christian philosophy (apologetics) have nothing to offer that the greeks haven't already covered. Not only that, they did it with more flair, more style, more depth, and a better understanding of the entire enterprise. Importantly, they did it first.

(@OP: He didn't. I probably already said that, but it's worth saying until people stop asking these sorts of questions, even if it's only a rhetorical device)

You would say that because you're a relativist, and apparently a sophist. You're not even interested in the philosophical implications of what you believe; in that regard you have proven to be intellectually incurious. For those of us who understand the truth is absolute, greek philosophy is like wearing waterwings in the kiddie pool. And Judiasm predates greek philosophy/mythology.

Of course god isn't a precog, he's a character in a fairy tale you like. My entire point that one does not have to be a god. Precognition is the only thing required to eliminate free will. LOL @ "God isn't a precog, he's just precognitive". No, god doesn't have anything to do with my eating cheerios, because he doesn't exist. Of course, if he did, then yes, he has everything to do with my eating cheerios. I could be eating granite, but that's not how he created me huh. So sometimes we have free will and sometimes we don't. Right, so, instead of offering any evidence for this pyramid of bullshit you're just going to complicate it further. Par for the course.

I don't make any assumptions about what's part of a non-existent gods plans Lucent. Are you seriously saying here though that hardship is part of gods plan, right after saying that not everything is controlled. So what gives, did god plan that tsunami or not? God can- nothing follows from this without evidence for god at the very least. What freewill choice? What free will? Gods a precog..lol.

I would say that because they did it bigger and better. So much so in fact that you folks absorbed chunks of their culture. GJ. So you're jewish now? You do realize that jesus doesn't mesh well with teh jews, yes?

(October 24, 2011 at 2:48 pm)lucent Wrote: For those of us who understand the truth is absolute...

Let me guess, that would be Christians, right? Do you have evidence for this absolute truth? God you say? Got any evidence for him? Anything besides the bible?

In other words, you only believe you understand the truth is absolute.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Of course god isn't a precog, he's a character in a fairy tale you like.

Evidence?

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: My entire point that one does not have to be a god. Precognition is the only thing required to eliminate free will.

You're wrong, it doesn't eliminate it all. God has the option of changing any part of it at any time. And again, just because He knows what you're going to do doesn't mean you didn't have a real choice. There is a possibility that God could be wrong, and that He isn't omniscient. It just never happens because He is actually omniscient. This doesn't limit you, it just means He is always right.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: LOL @ "God isn't a precog, he's just precognitive".

He isn't precognitive either. If anything He is omnicognitive. It's a little bit different when you can see past present and future unfolded before you at all times, *and* do something about it. The analogy is false.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, god doesn't have anything to do with my eating cheerios, because he doesn't exist.

Evidence?

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Of course, if he did, then yes, he has everything to do with my eating cheerios. I could be eating granite, but that's not how he created me huh.

He created you to make your own choices.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So sometimes we have free will and sometimes we don't. Right, so, instead of offering any evidence for this pyramid of bullshit you're just going to complicate it further. Par for the course.

If you're not capable of comprehending how God is omnipresent, can see *and* alter the future, and is not bound by His creation, or obligated to any specific set of events beyond that which has determined beforehand, how can we have a meaningful conversation?

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I don't make any assumptions about what's part of a non-existent gods plans Lucent.

Evidence?

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Are you seriously saying here though that hardship is part of gods plan, right after saying that not everything is controlled.

I'm saying God is ultimately in control, but that He can offer significant freedom to His creatures, to choose good or evil. Because of that, there is hardship, but the hardship is not a hinderance to His plans.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So what gives, did god plan that tsunami or not?

Traditionally, natural disasters are seen as a judgement against nations. A lot of things that happen are conditional upon how we are behaving. So it may not have been in the original plan, but yes God knew it would happen.

Now I know you will object and say this is ruthless. What I will say is that He is in control of life and death, and that nobody dies "accidently". From the outside, it seems random. But it was surely not random, and all the people who died left Earth on schedule.

It's the same thing with other disasters. Did God allow 9/11? Yes He did. The significant part of 9/11 is not terrorism, it is the fact that God allowed the followers of a foreign God to strike us. Biblically, that means that as a nation we are on the way to an extremely severe judgement unless we repent. Katrina was more evidence of this. So is the economic collapse.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: God can- nothing follows from this without evidence for god at the very least. What freewill choice? What free will? Gods a precog..lol.

You have no evidence for your position that God does not exist. I've already told you that only God can prove Himself to you, although I feel there is significant evidence that points to His existence. I told you how to seek out God but you refuse to do that which frees me from the burden of proof. The ball is in your court.

Let's talk about freewill..If you believe you're nothing more than material machinery then you don't have free will and you can't even trust your own rationality. You don't have free will because all of your choices are preceeded and caused by unconscious material processes. Here's a quote from Sam Harris:

"For [many people], freedom of will is synonymous with the idea that, with respect to any specific thought or action, one could have thought or acted differently. But to say that I could have done otherwise is merely to think the thought, “I could have done otherwise” after doing whatever I, in fact, did. Rather than indicate my freedom, this thought is just an epitaph erected to moments past. What I will do next, and why, remains, at bottom, inscrutable to me. To declare my “freedom” is tantamount to saying, “I don’t know why I did it, but it’s the sort of thing I tend to do, and I don’t mind doing it.”

And this is why the last objection is just another way of not facing up to the problem. To say that “my brain” has decided to think or act in a particular way, whether consciously or not, and my freedom consists in this, is to ignore the very reason why people believe in free will in the first place: the feeling of conscious agency. People feel that they are the authors of their thoughts and actions, and this is the only reason why there seems to be a problem of free will worth talking about."

You can't trust your own rationality because it is based upon on chemical reactions in the brain, a process which evolved from the lower animals and with guarantee of any truth. Here's what darwin said about it:

"With me, the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of man's mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy. Would any one trust in the convictions of a monkey's mind, if there are any convictions in such a mind?"

So, if I am speaking to someone who can't make independent choices, with rationality that came from monkeys, why should I even believe anything that you're saying?

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I would say that because they did it bigger and better.

That's your opinion, again coming from someone intellectually incurious about philosophy.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So much so in fact that you folks absorbed chunks of their culture.

I love how you make these statements with no evidence or research. There is no doubt that Christians would sometimes use hellanistic terminology to witness the gospel to the greeks, but this is as far as it went. Hellanism was pervasive, but it was primarily geared towards the ruling classes. It's influence in general was superficial. Jews and Christians doggedly maintained the integrity of their beliefs and practices, even to the point of martyrdom. Keeping out the encrouchment of pagan philosophies was priority number one. They maintained their religious beliefs in spite of hellanism, not in harmony with it.

(October 24, 2011 at 2:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: GJ. So you're jewish now? You do realize that jesus doesn't mesh well with teh jews, yes?

I am saying that the religious influence on Christianity was jewish, which predated Greek traditions.

Evidence for what? God, precogs, faeries? There isn't any. Case closed.

I'm not, but you NEED me to be very much. Sorry how that panned out for you.

You just keep making my point stronger and stronger, I don't think you even realize it. If the future can be viewed it is written. Choice is an illusion.

Handled above.

He created me to make my own choices based upon the limitations he set for me. Additionally, beyond the shit he created me not to be able to do, he swung the sword against a fair chunk of the shit I CAN do. Choices indeed.

We can't, because you're fucking nuts amigo..lol.

Handled above.

How very nice of him to let me make a decision between shit sandwiches and shit salad. Pleasant fucker isn't he?

Batshit crazy.

You're never releived of the burden of proof. Oh well. You shouldn't believe a word I say. Educate yourself. If you keep coming back with the same tired shit I know you've been looking in the same tired place.

I'm intellectually incurious about things that are intellectually bankrupt. You should be too. Life is short and then you die, how much time can you afford to waste with this garbage?

Yes, theres no evidence that christianity drew heavily from the greeks (and everyone else they ever came into contact with).................

Jews don't seem to think christianity is very jewish. They called BS first apparently, so, credit where it's due.

God created evil because god is evil. God is evil because evil is in god's genes. God inherited his evil genes from the evil unwashed 1300 BC sheep fucking Bedouin bastard who sired him in a moment of exuberant bullshitting.

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(October 24, 2011 at 9:33 am)fr0d0 Wrote: Free will in the Christianity agrees with you too.

That's usually not a good sign.