(May 14, 2020 at 10:24 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Let's explore that.  You asked whether four words in magic book stopped people from murder, or if that was why a day off from work is mandated.  I think that the answer to that is as obvious a no as you do....but........

....if there is no moral case against murder, or for a day off...sin and morality not being the same thing..then what is the case for or against either?

In your estimation, ofc.

As i point out in the OP Morality or the moral law only represents 1/3 of the total law. So sin is not bound to morality but rather is more of a media/virus or infection in which evil can maturate. kinda like agar in a petridish. once you embrace said sin rather than repent or resist it, your body/soul is infected with a flavor the demon who sponcers your sin of choice loves and will begin to consume you and you take on the characteristics of that demon. ever dealt with multiple addicts? they all start out as individuals, but no matter which drug takes them they begin to share common traits and personalities which consume and replace the person you knew.

Sin is like the zombie virus. we all will return from the dead. those who have been cleansed by Christ come back as themselves. those who die in sin come back as the living dead. it does not matter if a given person was a saint here in this life, if he is infected nothing he did matters. All that matters is his current state of infection.

kind go over this in the video in greater detail

I don't seem to remember restitution, or even penance, being a requirement. I thought you just had to proclaim your belief in god and ask for forgiveness...that's the get out of hell free card. Of course, you have to really, really mean it.

(May 14, 2020 at 10:27 am)arewethereyet Wrote:

(May 14, 2020 at 10:21 am)Drich Wrote: like what murder? it is your contention the religious are held back from murder by a single 4 word line in the bible? or how about working 7 days a week you think we made keep the sabbath holy because we would secretly want to work non stop without a brake if not for this command?

i think you are thinking of your sin of choice and assume it is like that with everyone.

Well, let's see...you and yours are prone to saying that atheists don't believe in god or follow theistic rules because they want to sin and have no morals - because you can only get morals from gawd and the Bible.

Then you come in here and say that you don't get your morals from the Bible either.

Pick a side - any side.

So, where do these morals and rules regarding sin come from?  If you, the believer, don't need the Bible to tell you what's right and wrong than why would anyone else?

glob.. watch the video as you don't seem to read anything i write.

you just assume everything..

i have never flip flopped on this my views on sin have always been different. as i know or understand morality only represents 1/3 of sin.

this is why i say morality is your standard to try and circumvent the need for atonement. that morality is the standard of popular culture it is the amount of sin you find acceptible to live in, and still judge yourself good.

God's judgement was never about good or bad moral or not. Jesus said none of us are 'good.' which means heaven is not filled with good people, rather i mean to say being good is not what heaven is about. which means sin has a different meaning than poor morals.

watch the video  or read what i wrote the gae Bologna 
(this is why i make videos because each of you always needs me to explain thing to them personally) you are asking for a 10 page report per person which says the same thing. the same thing i said in the op btw. and placed a video

An explicit description of sin as miasma, but it doesn't answer any question posed to you in the quoted text.

We can posit that immoral actions have no necessary consequence, or conversely that leading an ethically blameless life does nothing to change the fact that a person is mired in sin...but this only serves to highlight the question that was asked in even greater detail.

If an act being unrighteous does not make that act sinful, and if a sinful act has no relationship to outcomes...then what is the case against murder, or for a day off of work? It can't possibly take ten pages to explain that. Time to shit or get off the pot.

(May 14, 2020 at 11:00 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 14, 2020 at 10:27 am)arewethereyet Wrote: Well, let's see...you and yours are prone to saying that atheists don't believe in god or follow theistic rules because they want to sin and have no morals - because you can only get morals from gawd and the Bible.

Then you come in here and say that you don't get your morals from the Bible either.

Pick a side - any side.

So, where do these morals and rules regarding sin come from?  If you, the believer, don't need the Bible to tell you what's right and wrong than why would anyone else?

glob.. watch the video as you don't seem to read anything i write.

you just assume everything..

i have never flip flopped on this my views on sin have always been different. as i know or understand morality only represents 1/3 of sin.

this is why i say morality is your standard to try and circumvent the need for atonement. that morality is the standard of popular culture it is the amount of sin you find acceptible to live in, and still judge yourself good.

God's judgement was never about good or bad moral or not. Jesus said none of us are 'good.' which means heaven is not filled with good people, rather i mean to say being good is not what heaven is about. which means sin has a different meaning than poor morals.

watch the video  or read what i wrote the gae Bologna 
(this is why i make videos because each of you always needs me to explain thing to them personally) you are asking for a 10 page report per person which says the same thing. the same thing i said in the op btw. and placed a video

I wouldn't watch one of your videos if there was a cash prize at the end of it.

(May 14, 2020 at 10:34 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The christianese "written on our hearts" is conceptually equivalent to the secular statement that human beings possess moral agency.  

With the exception of those who genuinely believe in the doctrine of total depravity, there is no fundamental disagreement between the christian view of morality or moral agency and the secular view.  Unsurprising, again, due to the syncretic nature of christian belief.  

They heard what the pagan philosophers of classical antiquity had to say about moral agency and thought it was legit - they disagreed about gods.  We (the unfaithful) also dip into that same pool when we make moral assessments or proclamations.

are you kidding? when these 
'laws' were put into place they were not well received as it gave women rights secular law did not give them it gave slaves laws and right they never had, it restricted men's sexual activity making much of it forbidden and it put limitations of people and expectations no one else had to endure. in a culture where gods could be bribed and forgiveness be bought  by paying off priests, these laws demanded accountability in this life and in the next.

Then Christ came along and extended them to include thought to force 'good people' to admit they were not indeed good. what secular law did that? rather secular law seeks to make moral our wants and perversions so long as they do not hurt anyone in the short term.

It's true that secular laws have largely abandoned thought crime as an actionable item. It shouldn't take much more than a person pointing to those regimes that leaned on it to explain why this was so. The character of jesus, however, doesn't offer any novel opinions on the subject. It was already widely believed that men could have wicked hearts™, and that those thought crimes caused by their wicked heart were the impetus for act in the exterior world.

What is the case against thought crime outside of moral consideration?

You appear to be playing with the idea of long term harm as opposed to the short term harm you think that secular ethics or law is based upon. In what sense is an invocation of harm not identical to the basis of secular morality or law?

(May 14, 2020 at 10:54 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I don't seem to remember restitution, or even penance, being a requirement.  I thought you just had to proclaim your belief in god and ask for forgiveness...that's the get out of hell free card.  Of course, you have to really, really mean it.

it's not. which is why i said i dont fully agree with gae blongna.

and it is a little more than what you describes unless you thin God is a dummy/can be fooled or forced into granting you salvation per a loop hole you think you found.

you do ask God for forgiveness you acknowledge Jesus having died on the cross to cover you sin. and you got to alter your life like those two things mean something. don't have to burn down your house and start over, but you can pretend those words alone will save you. God will put on your heart the evils you must deal with first. work with the ones you can chip at the ones you cant right away.

If you need help you need proof seek him out on his terms and he will show up. but keep in mind to whom much is given much more is expected.

The more you do here the greater your life there.

if you try and get in the last minute Jesus describes them as having survived a great fire with singed cloths on their back and nothing more.. Who wants to enter heaven homeless?

(May 14, 2020 at 11:25 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 14, 2020 at 10:54 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I don't seem to remember restitution, or even penance, being a requirement.  I thought you just had to proclaim your belief in god and ask for forgiveness...that's the get out of hell free card.  Of course, you have to really, really mean it.

it's not. which is why i said i dont fully agree with gae blongna.

and it is a little more than what you describes unless you thin God is a dummy/can be fooled or forced into granting you salvation per a loop hole you think you found.

you do ask God for forgiveness you acknowledge Jesus having died on the cross to cover you sin. and you got to alter your life like those two things mean something. don't have to burn down your house and start over, but you can pretend those words alone will save you. God will put on your heart the evils you must deal with first. work with the ones you can chip at the ones you cant right away.

If you need help you need proof seek him out on his terms and he will show up. but keep in mind to whom much is given much more is expected.

The more you do here the greater your life there.

if you try and get in the last minute Jesus describes them as having survived a great fire with singed cloths on their back and nothing more.. Who wants to enter heaven homeless?

So those deathbed conversions don't work?  You don't have much time to fix things then.  I thought that was part of the beauty of it all...you could be gasping your last, proclaim your faith, ask forgiveness, and voila - here's your golden ticket.

Forgiveness for what? Never met the fucker.

More in the afterlife for what we do here? Secular moral reciprocity applies? What if you do "alot here" but don't ask for forgiveness? Ethically blameless, a moral exemplar, even, but unsaved.