Posts: 1994
Threads: 161
Joined: August 17, 2010
Reputation:
29
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 7:43 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 7:44 pm by Justtristo.)
(October 25, 2011 at 3:32 pm)salty Wrote: Concerning the comments: Rev, I do appreciate you saying that I'm nice, thank you. You really cracked me up in the Amish thread...that was my first interaction with you and I wanted to keep our future interactions lively and fun like that, but around here people don't see Christians as humans, we're just animals basically and if we're not nice, we're banned, but if any of you want to abuse us, it's no problem.
I happen to treat Christians as fellow human beings, that is more than I can say for some Christians I know in real life. Their views of atheists I have heard personally are sickening.
undefined
Posts: 5097
Threads: 207
Joined: February 16, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Quote:Concerning the OP: If there are choices, there is freewill. El Dinero brought up an example with sandwhiches, let's try that again.
fine, lets do that again.
I put you into a room that has 6 doors. 4 of those doors lead to something I dont want you to get to, so I lock them. 2 of those doors I consider acceptable choices for you, so I leave them unlocked.
You chose from one of the unlocked doors.
Did you have freewilll? Or did I tamper with your choices and give you the illusion of freewill?
Posts: 795
Threads: 27
Joined: July 1, 2009
Reputation:
27
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:06 pm
(December 3, 2010 at 9:05 am)Abraham3 Wrote: If we do not have free will [in heaven], then have we not lost something of immense value?
That follows only if we had free will to begin with. The question put forward by the original poster—whether or not there is free will in heaven, and the significant experience of loss if there is not—is rendered meaningless if man has never had free will. If the original poster was still active, then I would challenge the assumption his question takes for granted.
(October 11, 2011 at 9:17 am)Zen Badger Wrote: A man walks up to you and tells you that you have two choices: either (1) you hand over your wallet or (2) get your brains blown out. Where is the free will in those choices?
How does giving you a choice between A and B deny you free will? Is it because there is no C to choose from? I fail to see how giving you three things to choose from allows you to exercise free will but giving you two things to choose from robs you of free will. You need to explain how that follows.
(October 24, 2011 at 3:07 pm)salty Wrote: (October 24, 2011 at 10:28 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Salty - who defines what's unhealthy?
1. family ...
2. your body ...
3. society ...
4. science ...
Now that is interesting. God did not make it on Salty's list.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
Posts: 67593
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:07 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 10:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The key part Ryft, is "free", coercion erodes this to nothing. If a man with a gun- he gave you one option, give up your wallet. There is no other option. If you think there is maybe you should take that up with him?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 795
Threads: 27
Joined: July 1, 2009
Reputation:
27
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:18 pm
(October 25, 2011 at 10:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The key part, Ryft, is "free." Coercion erodes this to nothing.
How, exactly? He has coerced you into making a choice, but he has not coerced which choice you make.
(October 25, 2011 at 10:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If a man with a gun- he gave you one option, give up your wallet. There is no other option. If you think there is maybe you should take that up with him?
Except there is another option. Maybe he did not state it, but it is still there: not giving up your wallet.
But again, controlling which choice you make robs you of free will, but coercing you into making a choice does not.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
Posts: 67593
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:21 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 10:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, you're absolutely right, the man with the gun isn't controlling your choices in any way................. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 5097
Threads: 207
Joined: February 16, 2011
Reputation:
44
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:22 pm
Quote:That follows only if we had free will to begin with. The question put forward by the original poster—whether or not there is free will in heaven, and the significant experience of loss if there is not—is rendered meaningless if man has never had free will. If the original poster was still active, then I would challenge the assumption his question takes for granted.
That thought crossed my mind, but I decided the topic was made under the assumption that we currently have freewill.
In reality "freewill" is one of those concepts that can neither be confirmed or denied.
Posts: 795
Threads: 27
Joined: July 1, 2009
Reputation:
27
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:23 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 10:25 pm by Ryft.)
(October 25, 2011 at 10:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, you're absolutely right, the man with the gun isn't controlling your choices in any way...
Correct. There is nothing he can do to make you choose A, or to make you choose B. He can make you choose between them but not which one you choose.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
Posts: 67593
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
161
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:25 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 10:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Some christians believe in free will, it provides an underpinning for judgement and punishment. Others do not, they have decided to leverage some other belief for that purpose.
Sounds to me like he's done all he needs to do to secure your choice, the fact that this sort of crime is common also calls your assessment of the situation into question. You're drifting into arguing for absurdity because your position demands it. The man with the gun is in control, you do what he says. I don't even know why I have to argue this.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 12806
Threads: 158
Joined: February 13, 2010
Reputation:
111
RE: Is there free will in heaven?
October 25, 2011 at 10:25 pm
I agree with Ryft here. Yes, he is the one controlling your options, but you still have the option to defy him. It's a shitty option, yes. It is purposely weighed in his favor, yes. It is still a choice, regardless.
|
