(October 27, 2011 at 4:30 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:

(October 27, 2011 at 9:46 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I'm not a fan of capitalism, however I must say that the opposite view does not change the picture one bit.
The workers will always be in the lower classes of society, even though they may earn more in some countries, and less in some.

I see this to be true as well.
That's where socialism comes in to hold hands with capitalism to work hand in hand.

---

This is a minority and it's too much, still.

Socialism is not an inversion of the pyramid. It is the same pyramid, just replace "we rule you, we fool you" with the state.

Also, I do not seek an inversion of the pyramid.

I seek a destruction of that pyramid so that all are equal. We do not REQUIRE leaders.

(October 27, 2011 at 4:41 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(October 27, 2011 at 4:30 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:

(October 27, 2011 at 9:46 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I'm not a fan of capitalism, however I must say that the opposite view does not change the picture one bit.
The workers will always be in the lower classes of society, even though they may earn more in some countries, and less in some.

I see this to be true as well.
That's where socialism comes in to hold hands with capitalism to work hand in hand.

---

This is a minority and it's too much, still.

Socialism is not an inversion of the pyramid. It is the same pyramid, just replace "we rule you, we fool you" with the state.

Also, I do not seek an inversion of the pyramid.

I seek a destruction of that pyramid so that all are equal. We do not REQUIRE leaders.

Everyone is equal on paper. And well, your(and ours aswell) so-called "leaders" are not actually leaders, they just seem to be leaders because they were put as candidates before you, as leaders, yeah. Their stances on various things are simply determined by the popular opinion in the party, and they cannot go against them, nor against the senate, supreme court or etc.
So, what exactly do you seek?
Anarchy?
There must be a chain of command. But this pyramid does not represent this chain of command, nor does it paint an accurate description of most western-style governments today.

Quote:In that situation, you would vote "not sure", or one of the "kind of" votes...as you are definitely not a yea or nea

I don't really like to vote, but I'll tell you my opinion right here and now, I think this "pyramid" is rubbish, and nothing more than empty propaganda...There is nothing logical about this pyramid.
Let's examine the proposed "castes" that are shown to be the oppressors of the poor worker castes, according to this pyramid:

1-We rule you:
Kings and...Who else? Really, I believe that kings have not been in real power ever since the French revolution, at least not where this flyer has been printed out.
And governments...What exactly would you like? No government? What are you going to replace it with?

2-We fool you:
Well, if you disagree with religion, you can almost certainly say that you are being fooled by the priests and etc...However, it's generally the fact that people are fooling themselves first. So what exactly can the priests do if you choose to attend their mass? Not give out sermons? Not give you the point of view on things according to their(and your religion)?
It's nothing more than picking suitable scapegoat...

3-We shoot at you:
You? Who are you? Who am I? Am I you? Are you me?
Or perhaps I'm the man with the matchlock musket, or I'm the guy who mans the gatling gun. What exactly is my fault here, if I'm send to battle the other guy on the other side?
It's not me who makes the decisions. And it certainly is not up to the higher ranks to choose to whom to go war with, as for them to get the blame...

4-We eat for you:
I think that here are the Bourgeoisie. However, these are not really nobles, knights, herzogs or counts, here are the guys who actually own the private capital.
Unless you support the forceful seizure of assets, what can you really do about it?
And how will it really work out if all the capital were concentrated in the hands of the government?
Like if you were a relatively new country, yes, that would work out for some time, and most of the time, I support state owned-enterprises, as they are generally more reliable, and do not have to worry about making excess profits(although it's also important that they at least generate some revenue for the government), like private companies do.
However, such classes are generally required for a country to actually exist, and to be honest, they themselves have been revolutionaires from time to time(remember the French revolution).

What exactly is proposed against this caste of the pyramid?
Forceful takeaway of assets? Being subject to forced labor? What exactly?
And, who else are members of this caste?
Anyone who are not farmers, or industrial workers? Doctors? Engineers?
Finance managers? Lawyers? Judges? Small-business owners?
Where exactly does the middle class here belong to?
This pyramid is faulty indeed.

5-We work for all/we feed all:
And all get their wages and money from the governments, and the "we eat for you" caste. Even with communism implemented, you still get your money from the government, even though it is the case that you probably won't be able to aspire to anything else than being a worker, simply because this system actually needs workers to work.
So how many people work in agriculture and manufacturing today, in the USA, for example?
There is no caste, so to say, that can claim to "feed everyone" and still complain about being hungry, or "oppressed".
Or any caste that can claim to "work for all", besides the ones who are employed in the service sector...Yes, that's correct. A revolution that has it's base on cashiers, and other jobs that require minimal education.

It's evident that the only true thing in this pyramid is the lowest caste, which was existent once upon a time..
But even with the destruction of the pyramid, how am I supposed to be "equal" with a say, a dockworker whose job is to unload stuff from the docks, not that I haven't done manual labor myself during my years, I worked at construction sites as a laborer myself, not a qualified one tho..
But now I am an engineer, and I will have peope working under me after I'll go and finish my master's degree, and I'm supposed to think that I should earn the same with the guy who didn't even finish highschool, and simply works there as an underqualified technician who can't properly calibrate a distillation column?

Quote:Bite your tongue. There very much is a working class. I work in heavy labor. the vast majority of people i know work in heavy labor.

Well, it really doesn't matter. Statistics show that the "working class" as in industry and agriculture make up a small portion of the total American population, ever since automation has taken place.
So, you can have a labor union and all...Make demands, higher wages, and etc. That's okay...However, do you expect that you can change the flight of an arrow, like setting up a worker-based dictatorship?
No communist government ever created has been able to do that, ever.
Because you simply cannot trust uneducted men with the running of an entire country, and people expect to be better paid for the long years of their education(and well, it's free in Turkey, but it's generally not in America, so people expect to be paid much better, since they view education more like an investment, which, is true in a sense).
What exactly do you expect?

Quote:..that is...as long as the workers are kept ignorant. Its one of the reasons why right wingers want religion to be taught in the place of good science. Science teaches you to ask good questions and to make value judgements from them. religion teaches people to not ask questions and to just accept the pre-made values that come with them.

This is rubbish...You seriously believe that? It doesn't really make no sense to me, actually. Like right wingers want religion to be taught in place of etc..It really doesn't matter, if you really were concerned with learning science, you wouldn't be a worker.

Quote:I see this to be true as well.
That's where socialism comes in to hold hands with capitalism to work hand in hand.

Well, I think that a middle way is to be found.
I for example, support nationalized institutions, like healthcare, education and enterprises, even though I also support fair taxes, even though there isn't much we can do if the government chooses to raise taxes here.
But what I do not support is the choking of the free enterprises, however, regulations must be in place, as not to allow monopolies(other than state owned ones, if at all), exploitation of employees and etc. I also support private property, and people getting what they deserve according to their education, wit, and creativity.

(October 27, 2011 at 4:41 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(October 27, 2011 at 4:30 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:

(October 27, 2011 at 9:46 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: I'm not a fan of capitalism, however I must say that the opposite view does not change the picture one bit.
The workers will always be in the lower classes of society, even though they may earn more in some countries, and less in some.

I see this to be true as well.
That's where socialism comes in to hold hands with capitalism to work hand in hand.

---

This is a minority and it's too much, still.

Socialism is not an inversion of the pyramid. It is the same pyramid, just replace "we rule you, we fool you" with the state.

Also, I do not seek an inversion of the pyramid.

I seek a destruction of that pyramid so that all are equal. We do not REQUIRE leaders.

Your anarchism is a fraud. WE DO NEED LEADERS. It is the way human society must work. We biologically are made to either submit or control. Equality is a lie so we have to force it as much as possible to make life easier on those less fortunate; full equality is impossible. As for the fortunate, we'll fucking take what you've earned and make you share it.

Tis simply my ideology.

(October 28, 2011 at 8:31 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: Your anarchism is a fraud. WE DO NEED LEADERS. It is the way human society must work. We biologically are made to either submit or control. Equality is a lie so we have to force it as much as possible to make life easier on those less fortunate; full equality is impossible. As for the fortunate, we'll fucking take what you've earned and make you share it.

Tis simply my ideology.

Your response is amusing. CHEESEBURGERS ARE OUR MASTERS. Every society must follow the will of the mighty One. We are coded in binary to either eat cheeseburgers or make them. We are all equally trapped by the mighty King and his jester. Pickles have to protect us from their unbalanced and overwhelming power; without them none could survive. And those few who like diced onions... well: Get on with it!

Tis simply nonsense, at least mine doesn't hide behind a facade of suggesting it could be sensible

(October 27, 2011 at 8:52 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: ... more than I can adequately summarize in my drunken state...

Thank you, kılıç_mehmet, for a sensitive and nuanced view of what all too often gets ground into the pulp of the propaganda of one side or the other. and any who think there are easy answers have purchased them at the expense of blood and pain of those who do not fit their slogans. It's comforting to know that some still think, despite the incentives not to.

for reverendjeremiah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp2tQ75pTD0&ob=av2e

I'm rather drunk, so please excuse any rough edges that be.
peace. out.

(October 28, 2011 at 9:38 pm)Vaeolet Lilly Blossom Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 8:31 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: Your anarchism is a fraud. WE DO NEED LEADERS. It is the way human society must work. We biologically are made to either submit or control. Equality is a lie so we have to force it as much as possible to make life easier on those less fortunate; full equality is impossible. As for the fortunate, we'll fucking take what you've earned and make you share it.

Tis simply my ideology.

Your response is amusing. CHEESEBURGERS ARE OUR MASTERS. Every society must follow the will of the mighty One. We are coded in binary to either eat cheeseburgers or make them. We are all equally trapped by the mighty King and his jester. Pickles have to protect us from their unbalanced and overwhelming power; without them none could survive. And those few who like diced onions... well: Get on with it!

Tis simply nonsense, at least mine doesn't hide behind a facade of suggesting it could be sensible

I <3 Cheeseburgers.

My Chicken Fingerist Syndicate hereby declares war on you filthy heathen cheeseburgerists.

Hasn't history shown us again and again that the extreme ends of any ideology are unworkable? Cartoons like these do serve the purpose of exaggerating or emphasizing the things about any system that a group of people are dissatisfied with. That's why they strike a chord and why they are effective. So maybe we like to puff ourselves up with a little rhetoric, doesn't mean there isn't a grievance to be addressed.

(October 28, 2011 at 9:38 pm)Vaeolet Lilly Blossom Wrote:

(October 28, 2011 at 8:31 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote: Your anarchism is a fraud. WE DO NEED LEADERS. It is the way human society must work. We biologically are made to either submit or control. Equality is a lie so we have to force it as much as possible to make life easier on those less fortunate; full equality is impossible. As for the fortunate, we'll fucking take what you've earned and make you share it.

Tis simply my ideology.

Your response is amusing. CHEESEBURGERS ARE OUR MASTERS. Every society must follow the will of the mighty One. We are coded in binary to either eat cheeseburgers or make them. We are all equally trapped by the mighty King and his jester. Pickles have to protect us from their unbalanced and overwhelming power; without them none could survive. And those few who like diced onions... well: Get on with it!

Tis simply nonsense, at least mine doesn't hide behind a facade of suggesting it could be sensible

You need to educate people in the sense of a unity, before you expect them to act like such.
Who is going to do that?
You?

If that's the lesson you've learned from history... then I wonder what consists your education. In the end: every society will crumble. Some to corruption, some to war, some to lack of progression, some to purple liquid goo that eats cheeseburgers. It matters not if it is 'perfect' or if it has clear problems with longevity: it will eventually fail. It will eventually fall. It will eventually crumble. I am not bothered with this at all

@Mehmet: I don't need to educate anyone about anything. If they do something I don't like: I'll remove them. If they make a fuss: I'll clean up the mess they leave behind.

And I could do that... but my role is not that of a mother: it is the status of the godmother (minus the associated religious bullshit)

(October 29, 2011 at 6:31 am)apophenia Wrote:

(October 27, 2011 at 8:52 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: ... more than I can adequately summarize in my drunken state...

Thank you, kılıç_mehmet, for a sensitive and nuanced view of what all too often gets ground into the pulp of the propaganda of one side or the other. and any who think there are easy answers have purchased them at the expense of blood and pain of those who do not fit their slogans. It's comforting to know that some still think, despite the incentives not to.

Right, because people who oppose capitalism are obviously just spreading insensitive propaganda, and dont really think about things deeply like those who support capitalism. Obviously not supporting capitalism means spreading blood and pain because anti-capitalists do not think.

..and if this ISNT what you just posted, it sure the hell sounded like it.

Care to clarify?

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(October 29, 2011 at 10:35 am)Rhythm Wrote: My Chicken Fingerist Syndicate hereby declares war on you filthy heathen cheeseburgerists.

Hasn't history shown us again and again that the extreme ends of any ideology are unworkable? Cartoons like these do serve the purpose of exaggerating or emphasizing the things about any system that a group of people are dissatisfied with. That's why they strike a chord and why they are effective. So maybe we like to puff ourselves up with a little rhetoric, doesn't mean there isn't a grievance to be addressed.

right..because its not like the top 1% in America control over 40% of America's wealth or something...and that people have taken to the streets to protest this and are being fired upon by police. Its not like big corporations have taken bailouts from the working class to hand out expensive bonuses to their top executives while the workers fight each other over table scraps.

Sure. This image is merely puffing up my ego, and has no direct relation to current reality.

My apologies. I will, in the future, ensure that only happy happy things be posted so they will not disturb your life.