OFC it's not the issue, it's merely contained in the premise of the question. That said god does exist and is the maker of things the way they are.

Having made us mortal as just one example of the things it made the way it wanted them, has it done us a favor? No. You think that, maybe, an eternal life would be unenjoyable, but it could only be unenjoyable if god made it that way or wanted it to be that way. If he made it otherwise, or wanted it to be otherwise, than eternal life could be great. This is heaven and hell in a nutshell.

Being mortal isn't a favor, it's yet another insult, on a mountain of insults. Those other insults are the reasons you don't want to be immortal in the first place. The mob boss has set fire to our bar and we're wondering if the fact that he didn't piss on our shoes, while he was at it, might be a favor.

(July 23, 2020 at 4:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: OFC it's not the issue, it's merely contained in the premise of the question.  That said god does exist and is the maker of things the way they are.  

Having made us mortal as just one example of the things it made the way it wanted them, has it done us a favor?  No.  You think that, maybe, an eternal life would be unenjoyable, but it could only be unenjoyable if god made it that way or wanted it to be that way.  If he made it otherwise, or wanted it to be otherwise, than eternal life could be great.  This is heaven and hell in a nutshell.

Being mortal isn't a favor, it's yet another insult, on a mountain of insults.  Those other insults are the reasons you don't want to be immortal in the first place.  The mob boss has set fire to our bar and we're wondering if the fact that he didn't piss on our shoes, while he was at it, might be a favor.

What is OFC?

You say god exists based on what?

Hear say or something else?

If being mortal is not a favor, why did Yahweh force it upon us?

Why did god curse us?

Regrads
DL

OFC -of course-.

I say god exists because that's part of your premise. If you referred to magic book for an answer as to why god made us mortal, you won't get one. Ipse dixit. It only has an answer for why god endeavored to keep us mortal. One of the many jealous voices inside of his head worried that man, having eaten from the tree of knowledge, would next eat from the tree of life , and thus become "like us".

Now, god did curse us, but not with mortality.

TLDR version, "God" cursed "adam" with having to work for a living in order to take care of his nagging wife, cursed his wife to suffer tremendous pain and be subjugated, cursed the dirt, cursed a dragon to crawl, etc etc etc. He did this because he was angry that the mud man and rib woman did something he told them not to do.

I deffo don't think eternity sounds awesome, but I wouldn't mind an additional one or two thousand years. In a youthful body, obvs. If they really get that genetics thing happening, it's something that might be possible. Not for us, probably, but sometime in the vaguely not-too-far-off future.

But like, if we lived longer than like 80 years, think about all the progress and tech we'd see happen. That'd be pretty cool. And if we still had young bodies, we'd have time to try more careers, if we want. Learn more shit. Travel more places - even other stars.

Yeah, kinda sci-fi shit, but like..... That's where we (as in humanity) would surely head if we could.

But yeah. Fuck eternity. The experiences and life we have now would mean less if there was forever waiting for you around the bend. That can also be said of living a lot longer, I suppose - knowing we don't have long sure makes you appreciate the time we do have.

(July 23, 2020 at 6:30 pm)Gnomey Wrote: I deffo don't think eternity sounds awesome, but I wouldn't mind an additional one or two thousand years.

Sad to say, discussions on this subject tend to conflate different meanings of the word "eternity." This is from Wikipedia:

Quote:Eternity in common parlance means infinite time (or the quality, condition or fact of being eternal).[1] In classical philosophy, however, it is defined as what exists outside time as describing supranatural beings and forces, whereas sempiternity corresponds to the infinitely temporal, non-metaphoric definitions, as recited in requiem prayers for the dead.  Thomas Hobbes and many others in the Age of Enlightenment drew on the classical distinction to put forward metaphysical hypotheses such as "eternity is a permanent Now".[2]

So while some Christians talk about eternity as endlessly passing time, the theologians/philosophers generally mean "outside of time." 
God in eternity, or heaven in eternity, couldn't be boring, because there is no time there.

The best book I know on this (and several related topics) is The Great Chain of Being by Lovejoy. 

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5...BE5FFC02B6

He describes how Christians have traditionally posited different views of Heaven. For some, it's pretty much like our current life, only better. But for theologians, it's almost always fundamentally and ineffably different. And since we are creatures who live in time, it's very hard for us to imagine being in eternity.

I think endless health and youth and zest for life, coupled with an off switch when needed, wouldn't be bad.

(July 23, 2020 at 2:54 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Did Yahweh do us a favor by denying us eternal life?

No.

---

(July 23, 2020 at 3:05 pm)Sal Wrote: "when did you stop beating your wife?"

Never.

(July 23, 2020 at 5:08 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: OFC -of course-.

I say god exists because that's part of your premise.  If you referred to magic book for an answer as to why god made us mortal, you won't get one.  Ipse dixit.  It only has an answer for why god endeavored to keep us mortal.  One of the many jealous voices inside of his head worried that man, having eaten from the tree of knowledge, would next eat from the tree of life , and thus become "like us".

Now, god did curse us, but not with mortality.  

---

Quote:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
   and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
   and you will eat dust
   all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
   between you and the woman,
   and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
   and you will strike his heel.”

16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
   with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
   and he will rule over you.”

17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
   through painful toil you will eat food from it
   all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
   and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
   you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
   since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
   and to dust you will return.”

---

TLDR version, "God" cursed "adam" with having to work for a living in order to take care of his nagging wife, cursed his wife to suffer tremendous pain and be subjugated, cursed the dirt, cursed a dragon to crawl, etc etc etc.  He did this because he was angry that the mud man and rib woman did something he told them not to do.

Nicely put.

I see having to work for a living as a good thing. 

Like the Jews, Gnostic Christians like me think of Eden as where man was elevated, not where he fell.

A & E, to us, graduated from childhood to adulthood, so getting to work is our reward, not our penalty. Not to mentioned that we gained the knowledge of reproduction and could now breed.

Nice because otherwise, if you follow the story line, none of us would be here.

Christianity reversed the moral of the story when they usurped the god of the Jews.

Regards
DL

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(July 23, 2020 at 7:08 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I think endless health and youth and zest for life, coupled with an off switch when needed, wouldn't be bad.

I don't think a system that allows for us to live forever would come with such a switch.

You want your cake and eat it too, as they say, but your way is the only way I would accept eternal life as well.

Regards
DL

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(July 24, 2020 at 6:46 am)Porcupine Wrote:

(July 23, 2020 at 2:54 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Did Yahweh do us a favor by denying us eternal life?

No.

Yes.

Nice argument eh?

Regards
DL

(July 24, 2020 at 11:42 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Nicely put.

I see having to work for a living as a good thing. 

Like the Jews, Gnostic Christians like me think of Eden as where man was elevated, not where he fell.

A & E, to us, graduated from childhood to adulthood, so getting to work is our reward, not our penalty. Not to mentioned that we gained the knowledge of reproduction and could now breed.

Nice because otherwise, if you follow the story line, none of us would be here.

Christianity reversed the moral of the story when they usurped the god of the Jews.

Regards
DL

I'd suggest that while this may accurately reflect your beliefs, and your beliefs about a specific god, it doesn't match the historic development of that god in particular, or..... really..... of any god in general.

This isn't to say that your beliefs cannot refer to some valid reading, and the coming of age story is right out there for all to see, it's just the acknowledgement that any notion that you or people who believe as you do aren't expressing some sort of traditional continuity. That's just another example of the abrahamic ladder. You all want to believe that your beliefs were the original version, and that someone else "flipped" this or that. Credibility is somehow exchanged in this way. None of you are speaking from a point of fact in the matter.

(July 24, 2020 at 1:09 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:

(July 24, 2020 at 11:42 am)Greatest I am Wrote: Nicely put.

I see having to work for a living as a good thing. 

Like the Jews, Gnostic Christians like me think of Eden as where man was elevated, not where he fell.

A & E, to us, graduated from childhood to adulthood, so getting to work is our reward, not our penalty. Not to mentioned that we gained the knowledge of reproduction and could now breed.

Nice because otherwise, if you follow the story line, none of us would be here.

Christianity reversed the moral of the story when they usurped the god of the Jews.

Regards
DL

I'd suggest that while this may accurately reflect your beliefs, and your beliefs about a specific god, it doesn't match the historic development of that god in particular, or..... really..... of any god in general.

This isn't to say that your beliefs cannot refer to some valid reading, and the coming of age story is right out there for all to see, it's just the acknowledgement that any notion that you or people who believe as you do aren't expressing some sort of traditional continuity.  That's just another example of the abrahamic ladder.  You all want to believe that your beliefs were the original version, and that someone else "flipped" this or that.  Credibility is somehow exchanged in this way.  None of you are speaking from a point of fact in the matter.

As a Gnostic Christian, I know we were not the originators of our myths. They were written to put against the Christian myth before Christianity went stupid and began reading their myths literally.

Here is a brief opinion/apologetic for my view. Please do not think a Gnostic Christian is a Christian.

If we were, they would not have sent the inquisitors to decimate us. 

The only good Christians to us, as recognized by the intelligentsia, is a Gnostic Christian.

--------------
I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.
 
https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
 
Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html
 
Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."
 
Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.
 
"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."
 
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
 
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cian...=PLCBF574D
 
Regards
DL