(July 28, 2020 at 8:43 pm)Sal Wrote: Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Even if one desperately needs it to be so.

(July 28, 2020 at 2:52 pm)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote: Why do you think things (bad or good) happen?

This is an oversimplification and mainly laypersons question made by the religious.

The complicated answer both happen because both are observable. 

Ultimately the the universe is made up of constructive and destructive events. And even humans have always done good and bad.

But if one is talking in terms of science, a hurricane is a perfect example of being both predictive and uncertainty.  Science can tell you the average conditions that have the potential to lead to a hurricane, but what they cannot tell you is the exact number of raindrops produced by the hurricane during the duration of the storm. 

But with human behavior, we do have sciencies like psychology, psychiatry, neurology, and sociology.  Science has an idea on conditions of say, how a kid is raised, if they are abused vs not abused, we have a likelihood idea of how a child might turn out as an adult under certain conditions. But, just like the hurricane, you cant predict to 100% certainty if one arises what category it will be or whom it will affect. Some storms peter out long before they hit a wide population. 

The simplistic answer as to why good and bad happen, is because they do.  The complicated answer is what science tries to figure out. 

The problem with humans is that far to often we view life in simplistic terms. Science talks in terms of sample rates, peer review, probability. 

Can science predict 100% of what 7 billion humans will do, good or bad, ? NO. But it can tell us a variety of reasons humans do good or bad under specific conditions.

The problem with a master plan is that there's no way to parse it that actually makes sense, too many things are just...random from a human point of view, especially if they don't involve human beings acting with intent. All we can do is try to tilt the dice in favor of our desired outcomes and hope for the best, while accepting that things might not turn out the way we hope no matter how hard we try. You can think that our successes and failures and the general state of the world are due to some cosmic planner with a vast cosmic plan, but I don't think that really helps us accept the world as it is.

Prayer may help us feel like we can influence events by getting God on our side, but you can get the same actual results (yes, no, maybe) praying to a teddy bear or milk carton. If a particular religion got better results than any other, we could tell.

I hope that was helpful, Shazza.

(July 28, 2020 at 4:24 pm)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

(July 28, 2020 at 4:19 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Because a wingnut shot him inna head.

Yup, his reason was he was a wingnut disconnected from reality.

When a Mom and a Pop cuddle...

Surely somebody has explained the birds and the bees to you? Apparently not.

Because you get to bury the beefy bayonet in the fragrant woman's cave. Do you somehow think that in that "oh god" moment of orgasm that the parents decide exactly all of the potential childs life? That is absurd.

I have two of my own. I intentionally have always encouraged them to be their own person.

He was elected. Don't you know how democracy works? 

Because you chose to do so. Are you claiming you had no choice in the matter?

Yep. This next level BS will definitely ruin your life.

Because YOU were born. If your imaginary brother had been born, you would not exist.

Daft question

That is not our fault.

Here is the deal. Next month, my eldest will be an adult. At that point, he will be appointed executor of my will. Would that be different if he was a she? Nope. That is based on ability, not gender.

You can barnstorm all you like about how things could be different.

But you would be better served by dealing with how things are.

1. I didn't blame you for anything 
2. I'm not disconnected from reality, I accept the way things are. I just like to ponder about the why they are the way they are. Theres nothing wrong with that. wth is the point of philosophy??

I think it is a mistake to think there is a single 'reason' that explains everything that happens. And, often the 'reason' things happen the way they do is a mishmash of a variety of factors that conspire to produce that one event. Often, even small differences initially would have made things greatly different.

Why do I exist? Because my mother hand father loved each other SOOOOO much....but why that one particular sperm? We could go into the differences of motility, and fluid flow, and position of the egg, etc, But that is the *only* type of answer to that question. Asking for a cosmic reason is assuming a type of answer that simply doesn't exist.

Another problem is that we often want 'reasons' that make us significant factors, when, usually, we are not. The difference between that one sperm and another was probably a matter of a second at most. Nothing that anyone could do consciously would have had an effect that could determine that outcome. A slight motion and a different person would have resulted.

So, ultimately, the reason things are the way they are is because the laws of physics are the way they are, that the world was the way it was, and the probabilities came out the way they did. No other answer is an actual answer.

---

(July 28, 2020 at 4:02 pm)Shazzalovesnovels Wrote:

(July 28, 2020 at 3:52 pm)Lawz Wrote: It sounds to me like you ARE asking if we believe in a master plan (ie - God's plan) then, and the answer, our being atheists, would be NO.

Also I'm a determinist who does not believe in free will (although I believe people must be TREATED by society/friends/family/the law etc as though we DO have free will) and those are the issues you're getting toward.

I'm stupid but I'm not THAT stupid. This is an atheist forum, I'm aware of that. I really am try to lean away from God's plan in this thread. I want to know how you guys rationalize without it. 
How do you mean, we don't have free will?

There are laws of physics and chemistry. Put two chemicals together of the appropriate types and they will react. Matter does that sort of thing.

You are expecting grand, cosmic explanation, when there are usually only local, trivial, almost random reasons.

We 'rationalize' it because we know we are part of the universe and the universe has many interconnected interacting parts. No deity required: just the motion of matter.

"Everything has a cause" is one of the most fundamental principles, *causation*. Its a basic assumption (wont go into the metaphysical connotations, otherwise Bel may pop up) we make to figure out how the universe works, and so far it has worked very well. So far no (good) reason to doubt it.

"Reason" implies a mind. Not everything that happens is intended by a mind. At least if you are trying to make this statement, then you need to provide evidence.

What you are doing here, is (intentinally) confating those two. Happens quite often.

At work.

(July 30, 2020 at 2:11 am)Deesse23 Wrote: "Everything has a cause" is one of the most fundamental principles, *causation*. Its a basic assumption (wont go into the metaphysical connotations, otherwise Bel may pop up) we make to figure out how the universe works, and so far it has worked very well. So far no (good) reason to doubt it.

"Reason" implies a mind. Not everything that happens is intended by a mind. At least if you are trying to make this statement, then you need to provide evidence.

What you are doing here, is (intentinally) confating those two. Happens quite often.

That's a true.

It's also why Theists posit their diety since they don't like the idea of "Turtles all the way down."

Of course, where they come unstuck with regard to current knowledge is things like atomic decay, Hawking radiation etc.

Things in reality either with out cause or particles becoming 'Real' where before there were none.

Much cheers.

(July 30, 2020 at 2:25 am)Peebo-Thuhlu Wrote: At work.

(July 30, 2020 at 2:11 am)Deesse23 Wrote: "Everything has a cause" is one of the most fundamental principles, *causation*. Its a basic assumption (wont go into the metaphysical connotations, otherwise Bel may pop up) we make to figure out how the universe works, and so far it has worked very well. So far no (good) reason to doubt it.

"Reason" implies a mind. Not everything that happens is intended by a mind. At least if you are trying to make this statement, then you need to provide evidence.

What you are doing here, is (intentinally) confating those two. Happens quite often.

That's a true.

It's also why Theists posit their diety since they don't like the idea of "Turtles all the way down."

Of course, where they come unstuck with regard to current knowledge is things like atomic decay, Hawking radiation etc.

Things in reality either with out cause or particles becoming 'Real' where before there were none.

Much cheers.

Maybe there is a god
Maybe he/she/it has planned everything in advance.
Then he/she/it should go to therapy and get a grip on the micromanagement issue(s)

God lit the fuse to the big bang.
Everything that happens after that is below his paygrade. Not interested. He's too busy lighting fuses.

(July 30, 2020 at 2:37 am)ignoramus Wrote: God lit the fuse to the big bang.
Everything that happens after that is below his paygrade. Not interested. He's too busy lighting fuses.

"God" is the poster child for infinite regress.

(July 31, 2020 at 2:14 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(July 30, 2020 at 2:37 am)ignoramus Wrote: God lit the fuse to the big bang.
Everything that happens after that is below his paygrade. Not interested. He's too busy lighting fuses.

"God" is the poster child for infinite regress.

That’s not the case at all. Read up.

Boru