Here’s the closest thing I could find. The word’s history remains obscure to me and possibly to scholars.

I also found another Greek word that’s been known to have the same meaning, Tryz, and is Known to come from before the writing of the gospels. Unfortunately for drich, the closest form that appears in the Bible is related to picking grapes and not consuming them. Gleukos is also attested for, but its sole appearance in the Bible has a pretty clear connection to drunkenness.

(July 31, 2020 at 4:52 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Hullo, Drich.  Horrid to have you back.

Boru

kinda still want that apology otherwise partial ban still in effect. Not cool calling people racist just because you were loosing an argument..  Especially when you know as well as i do the subject matter was neutral, as it compared culture and not race as people with the same race were being compared with different cultures of the same race. This could equally apply to me and my situation growing up here verse growing up in korea. in fact i think we have had that discussion before and no one cared/did not flag my statement as racists. came back to see if a kid i was speaking to on facebook and youtube joined, and wanted to continue the conversation we were having.

(July 31, 2020 at 6:39 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(July 31, 2020 at 4:11 pm)Drich Wrote: there are two words in the koine greek. where ever the phrase 'fruit of the vine' or 'new wine' is used it means 'grape juice.' (new wine grape juice exposed to yeast) and where the bible says wine it means alcoholic wine.

So, I decided to try and test that claim. Looking through Strong's Concordance, I found exactly three Greek nouns translated as "wine" that appear in the New Testament.

• Oinos, which means wine. It is used 34 times. Pretty straightforward.
  
• Oxos, which means vinegar, but is actually commonly believed to be an imperfect Greek translation of a drink called Posca, (this is actually a common mistranslation used by Plutarch as well as the Gospel writers because Greek lacked a word for the drink) which is basically a mix of vinegar, water, and maybe some herbs. Used six times.
  
• Gleukos, which is translated as "new wine." This appears exactly once, and in a context that severely undermines Drich's exegesis. It happens in Acts 2:13, a reaction to the apostles speaking in all the different languagaes of the world, and while some looked on in amazement and perplexity, (and I'm using the Amplified Bible for this) " But others were laughing and joking and ridiculing them, saying, “They are full of sweet wine and are drunk!” Many translations don't add "and are drunk," but the context remains clear: they think the Apostles are drunk when they speak all these foreign languages.
  

And then you mentioned "fruit of the vine." I found nine verses in the New Testament that used both those words, and in only three of them does it seem to refer to a drink: Matthew 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18, each time said by Jesus during the Last Supper after the disciples had all "drunk his blood," saying that he would not drink the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God came and he drank it with the disciples again. And since it's pretty explicitly described in each account as a feast for the first day of passover (read: the Seder), and one of the rituals of the Seder involves drinking four cups' worth of wine (which most branches of Judaism TO THIS DAY explicitly state must be alcoholic except when the drinker is either a child [who has yet to go through the Bar Mitzvah] or if the drinker will get sick if served alcohol), plus the fact that non-alcoholic grape juice was only made a viable drink 151 years ago, the likelihood that "fruit of the vine" referred to something non-alcoholic in the time of Christ becomes vanishingly rare.

let start with fruit of the vine as found in mat 26 Mark14 and luke22... in this context it literally means the fruit that come from the vine. as in unaltered, we know this because vinegar is a version of fermented grape and he has was given that on the cross. He declared he would not have fruit of the vine which is him saying he would not take anything to do with grapes as a whole food. (wine and vinegar being processed grape/not whole unchanged from the vine.) . https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/s...rimary_0_1

Fruit:†γέννημα génnēma, ghen'-nay-mah; from ; offspring; by analogy, produce (literally or figuratively):—fruit, generation.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...1081&t=KJV

then of the vine:https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...1081&t=KJV
ἄμπελος ámpelos, am'-pel-os; probably from the base of G297 and that of ; a vine (as coiling about a support):—vine.

we know wine is different as it has it's own word and if christ mean alcoholic wine he would have used this word:
οἶνος oînos, oy'-nos; a primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin ()); "wine" (literally or figuratively):—wine.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...3631&t=KJV

which is different than new wine as out lined in:mat 9 mark 14, and luke 22. new wine differs from old wine as this parable states it contains yeast and will expand, which is the reason for the warning of not putting new wine in old wine skins as old wine skins do not have the ability to flex with the build up of gass/co2. meaning if you put new wine in an old wine skin it will likely burst during the transformation from fruit of the vine to wine.

†νέος néos, neh'-os; including the comparative νεότερος neóteros neh-o'-ter-os; a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate:—new, young. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...3501&t=KJV

So there you have it. wine is used to get someone drunk or in scripture tells us not to drink wine till drunkarness. "The pharse New wine is used to describe grape juice in the process, verses grapes, verse wine with alcohol. meaning wine contains
alcohol.  New wine has yet to undergo fermentation process. (what causes old wine skins to burst when filled with new wine) you established vinegar being different still. then fruit of the vine meaning grapes or grape juice. as no fermentation or any processing is mentioned with this definition, but rather describes a whole food from the vine/unchanged from the vine.

maybe Rev you could pm me with your venture into exegesis and i could fill you in with the proper answers before you go off and completely make a fool of yourself. in that you look pretty stupid because you didn't even know the verses i am quoting and the literary content that could have been extrapolated from the english text as in these cases was the whole point of the parable.

---

(July 31, 2020 at 11:06 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote:

(July 31, 2020 at 6:39 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: So, I decided to try and test that claim. Looking through Strong's Concordance, I found exactly three Greek nouns translated as "wine" that appear in the New Testament.

• Oinos, which means wine. It is used 34 times. Pretty straightforward.
  
• Oxos, which means vinegar, but is actually commonly believed to be an imperfect Greek translation of a drink called Posca, (this is actually a common mistranslation used by Plutarch as well as the Gospel writers because Greek lacked a word for the drink) which is basically a mix of vinegar, water, and maybe some herbs. Used six times.
  
• Gleukos, which is translated as "new wine." This appears exactly once, and in a context that severely undermines Drich's exegesis. It happens in Acts 2:13, a reaction to the apostles speaking in all the different languagaes of the world, and while some looked on in amazement and perplexity, (and I'm using the Amplified Bible for this) " But others were laughing and joking and ridiculing them, saying, “They are full of sweet wine and are drunk!” Many translations don't add "and are drunk," but the context remains clear: they think the Apostles are drunk when they speak all these foreign languages.
  

Is there a specific word for grape juice in Greek or is "wine" used interchangeably with alcohol and juice depending on the context?

where ever the bible says fruit of the vine, it meant as grapes or grape juice.

new wine is unferment treated with yeast to become wine.

wine is full on wine.

---

(August 2, 2020 at 5:59 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Here’s the closest thing I could find. The word’s history remains obscure to me and possibly to scholars.

I also found another Greek word that’s been known to have the same meaning, Tryz, and is Known to come from before the writing of the gospels. Unfortunately for drich, the closest form that appears in the Bible is related to picking grapes and not consuming them. Gleukos is also attested for, but its sole appearance in the Bible has a pretty clear connection to drunkenness.

You are what happens when a person suffering from dunning kruger thinks he can reverse engineer an exegetical explanation. while you can find greek word, they may not always be koine greek and even if you find koine greek words they may not coincide with biblical use. if you look at your strong's there usually two different definition of a given word. one being the greek variant and the other being biblical usage. remember greek was not being used in it's purest form but rather as a substituatory written language for a 3rd language/aramaic. imagine your use of english verse someone how spoke japanese as a primary language but used englished to write down their thoughts. you would have a 80 to 90% over lap where the writer who was well educated means what he says and then there would be that 10% that is just lost to translation or word typically not used would be used to align with the host language. which sport is why you can't reverse engineer an exegetical pov without all the correlating verses and their information. you need to have an understanding of how the passage is first used in scripture before you can break it down. yours is a rookie error of greek being greek.

(August 3, 2020 at 11:12 am)Drich Wrote: we know wine is different as it has it's own word and if christ mean alcoholic wine he would have used this word:
οἶνος oînos, oy'-nos; a primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin ()); "wine" (literally or figuratively):—wine.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...3631&t=KJV

which is different than new wine as out lined in:mat 9 mark 14, and luke 22. new wine differs from old wine as this parable states it contains yeast and will expand, which is the reason for the warning of not putting new wine in old wine skins as old wine skins do not have the ability to flex with the build up of gass/co2. meaning if you put new wine in an old wine skin it will likely burst during the transformation from fruit of the vine to wine.

You're arguing that if Christ meant alcoholic wine, he would have used the word "Oinos." To pick an example, you chose the parable of the wineskins. So I checked the text of all three variations on that parable, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The word used for wine each of the ten times it's used? Oinos. Just click on the little "Tools" tab or on the chapter/verse citation on each of those verses and you'll find the interlinear translation that shows every single Greek word in the original text of that verse.

Seriously, your response as a whole is either just doubling down on your stupid or just repeating the same information I presented, but treating it like it's somehow the opposite. You argue that if Christ meant alcoholic wine, he'd have used "oinos," I point out that the vast majority of references to wine in the New Testament use that exact word. Surprisingly, even most uses of "new wine" in the NT use that word. The one other time outside of this parable the phrase "new wine" is used in the NT (with a different word), it's in a context that makes no sense if you're talking about a non-alcoholic drink.

(August 3, 2020 at 11:54 am)Rev. Rye Wrote:

(August 3, 2020 at 11:12 am)Drich Wrote: we know wine is different as it has it's own word and if christ mean alcoholic wine he would have used this word:
οἶνος oînos, oy'-nos; a primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin ()); "wine" (literally or figuratively):—wine.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex...3631&t=KJV

which is different than new wine as out lined in:mat 9 mark 14, and luke 22. new wine differs from old wine as this parable states it contains yeast and will expand, which is the reason for the warning of not putting new wine in old wine skins as old wine skins do not have the ability to flex with the build up of gass/co2. meaning if you put new wine in an old wine skin it will likely burst during the transformation from fruit of the vine to wine.

You're arguing that if Christ meant alcoholic wine, he would have used the word "Oinos." To pick an example, you chose the parable of the wineskins. So I checked the text of all three variations on that parable, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The word used for wine each of the ten times it's used? Oinos. Just click on the little "Tools" tab or on the chapter/verse citation on each of those verses and you'll find the interlinear translation that shows every single Greek word in the original text of that verse.

Seriously, your response as a whole is either just doubling down on your stupid or just repeating the same information I presented, but treating it like it's somehow the opposite. You argue that if Christ meant alcoholic wine, he'd have used "oinos," I point out that the vast majority of references to wine in the New Testament use that exact word. Surprisingly, even most uses of "new wine" in the NT use that word. The one other time outside of this parable the phrase "new wine" is used in the NT (with a different word), it's in a context that makes no sense if you're talking about a non-alcoholic drink.

2 things.1 your synopsis, not my argument. I was demonstrating the difference between new wine, old wine, and fruit of the vine. (as pr my op which you said was wrong.)  I was demonstrating old wine having no potential of rupturing a wine skin. new wine does because it is pre fermentation and the co2 from the fermentation process would destroy the old skins.. so there are two forms of wine one with one without alcohol. which is different still from fruit of the vine which is a whole fruit. 

That was point one. point two is your 'correction' failed now for a 2nd time. you did not souce the word correctly nor does it match with the context of the biblical use. you stumbled into this subject like a drunk sliding through an intersection somehow only missing everyone present and now you want to pretend it was driving skill. no i said from the beginning fruit of the vine is grape juice. wine in alcoholic. and new wine was pre fermentation, then you came in to correct... remember that? if there is correction to be made it is yours to fit what i have established. in my opening statement and my biblical use of the words provided. your 80% effort may feed into your dunning kruger problem, but it does not properly provide an exegesis to the op question.

(August 3, 2020 at 9:41 am)Drich Wrote:

(July 31, 2020 at 4:52 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Hullo, Drich.  Horrid to have you back.

Boru

kinda still want that apology otherwise partial ban still in effect. Not cool calling people racist just because you were loosing an argument..  Especially when you know as well as i do the subject matter was neutral, as it compared culture and not race as people with the same race were being compared with different cultures of the same race. This could equally apply to me and my situation growing up here verse growing up in korea. in fact i think we have had that discussion before and no one cared/did not flag my statement as racists. came back to see if a kid i was speaking to on facebook and youtube joined, and wanted to continue the conversation we were having.

Who exactly do you want an apology from?

Boru

I should probably point out that my view regarding the greek words for wine is not unique to me.

Did Jesus Drink wine or Grape Juice? And this includes some of the controversy about the use of the word "oinos" and how it was translated into "new wine" on some occasions when there was already a word explaining exactly that, and even going a little into the fact that trying to keep grapes from fermentation would be extremely impractical in the First Century AD. The more I look into the matter, the more convinced I become that the misguided assumption that "surely Jesus must not have drunk alcohol because alcohol causes a lot of destruction in its wake, therefore we hate it, therefore, Jesus couldn't have condoned drinking it, even if it's to be done strictly in moderation."

This is summed up in one of the comments:

Quote:I would say the Author wrote this article to justify his Wine (alcohol) drinking as most Christians like to do. If Jesus Drank fermented Wine,then he puts his stamp of approval on all the sorrow it brings.(Death,Breaks up the family,etc).Jesus gives life,not takes it. It makes no sense to say Jesus sipped the rotten fermented grape when the purity and life is in the fresh grape.(fruit of the vine)

His response:

Quote:You’re equating drinking with being a drunk and they are not the same. Just like sex, used in the proper context it’s a good thing but in the wrong context it’s a grave sin against the body and holy Spirit.

Also, grapes start fermenting in 12 hours or less and can complete fermentation in less than a week in many cheap wines. [N.B., the author does do some home brewing and points out from personal experience that sometimes fermentation can start in as few as two hours from breaking the skin, even without added yeast or sugars.] The only way to delay fermentation (ed. at least by the standards of the time) is by burying the juice in very deep holes to get the temp below 45 degrees….which is hard to do in hot climates. There is no historical or linguistic reason to believe that Jesus drank grape juice.

Also God commanded the Israelites to produce and tithe their wine… The fermented type in Hebrew.

Jesus was a lover of good red wine!
That much for sure!

So we've established jesus swallows. Noted.

Why didn't Jesus turn flour into cocaine? Wouldn't that be more fun?