(June 1, 2021 at 12:36 pm)johndoe122931 Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 12:06 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Ok, if you want people to speak for themselves as individuals, AWESOME. Then you should also then understand why you can't call "atheist" a "worldview."

Yes, I understand that. That is why I asked for clarification before when another individual objected to my use of that term, but I received no input as to how one would like for me to describe the said view. My reasoning is that it is how one views the world or their reality. If you want to get picky with words that's fine, but please instead of just telling me not to use it give me another way to refer to it. Thank you!

I think his point is that you're misunderstanding atheism if you think it correlates with a way of relating to the world beyond simply not including a god in theirs. This is a subject that typically garners some broad-ranging discussion and even atheists don't agree upon the subject. Atheism entails no ideological commitments. Not believing in a god is not an ideology. This basic fact has led many to liken getting atheists to agree on other things as akin to herding cats. That being said, some generalities can be made, but they are just generalities and may not hold true in any specific case. I suppose coming at it from the outside, one gets an impression as to what a 'typical' atheist is like, just as one forms initial impressions of any group. It's worth bearing in mind that those impressions, those generalized traits, aren't atheism.

It's also worth noting that there are religious atheists. Buddhism, in the main strands, isn't about gods. And there were atheistic strands of Hinduism as well. The reason one might overlook these facts might have to do with a tendency to associate a worldview or ideological tendencies with atheism, which, in these cases, is grossly misleading.

Just a few points...

I don't believe in any gods, not zeus, thor, odin, ra, quetzalcoatl, yahweh, or jehovah for the same reason I don't believe in pixies, fairies or goblins

If a god created the universe (that is everything that exists) then where was he before he created it? (Heaven is not an answer because that would be part of “everything that exists”)

Historians have catalogued over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities, so how do you know you picked the correct one?

If a god wants to provide evidence that he is real (and why wouldn't he?) he should make his word appear in every home on the planet, at the same time, in whatever language the people spoke, printed on an unknown and indestructible material that was impossible to analyse... then I might start to think that this might be something worth looking at, but an old book on paper … no, he needs to do better than that!

Most christians come from christian families, most muslims come from muslim families, how many people look at the world’s religions before deciding on one? Most people spend more time deciding what shirt to wear than they do picking a religion

If i see some convincing, testable evidence of a god I would convert in a second... that's what convincing means, but I have not been convinced in 66 years!

Atheism is a conclusion not a belief

As a concept, I can believe in God the same way I can believe in time travel.  Both are fun fictional devices.  I don't believe either exist as more than a concept.  So why limit the question?

(June 1, 2021 at 12:48 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: Johndoe: Why?

To be honest with you. It's hard to do(abandon your own will). Insanely hard. It's much easier to survive till the end. And thats what I have been unconsciously, consciously trying to do.

Well, I can definitely agree with you there.

(June 1, 2021 at 12:35 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: God has His plan, His will. Those who want to follow Him, must abandon their plans and will. And thats isn't something I'm willing to do.

Agreed.  If there was a god, certainly it can treat me like a poker chip, a lab rat, but that doesn't mean for me at least, I have to put up with authoritarianism. 

Why should I submit, in any relationship to the concept of " There is nothing you can do or say, you can only  do anything I want." 

The worst dictators in in human history had the ability to treat people kindly, Hitler, Stalin, Po Pot, even Kim Jong Un is willing to treat you well, but only if you blindly kiss is ass and never question them. 

God treats his loyalists well, but one lick of doubt, even if your only crime is not believing, even if you go your entire life never being violent, you burn in hell. That is not morality, that is evil.

If anyone has ever watched documentaries on circuses  or zoos or animal acts why is it you get these clips sometimes of an elephant or tiger or some other dangerous animal that suddenly goes ape shit on the trainer? Then you get the clips of the caretakers saying, "We didn't expect this".

I am glad there is no "Celestial Big Brother" as Hitchens put it. I really fucking hate the idea of an all seeing, Orwellian "celestial North Korea", as Hitchens put it. 

The idea that there is this ultimate cosmic camera in the sky, that watches my every move, and will only give me favor if I kiss his ass blindly, is a vile concept.

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(June 1, 2021 at 1:04 pm)johndoe122931 Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 12:48 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: Johndoe: Why?

To be honest with you. It's hard to do(abandon your own will). Insanely hard. It's much easier to survive till the end. And thats what I have been unconsciously, consciously trying to do.

Well, I can definitely agree with you there.

But that is the problem with the supernatural claim of all knowing and all seeing and having ultimate control. 

The earthy concept of making choices without a God claim, makes sense. It isn't that other's actions cant affect you beyond your control, they can. One can drive a car for decades, obey the traffic laws, and one day go through an intersection with a green light, only to be T-boned by someone else speeding who runs the red light. Both made choices, but the one trying to do the right thing ended up on the short stick. Lets say the idiot who T- bones you and is rich, you still get the short end of the stick, even if it is not your fault. 

I simply have a HUGE problem with the claim that there is a cosmic overseer who has already planned everything out, no matter what you personally do, good or bad. 

If one skips the supernatural security guard claim, it makes much more sense. Sometimes you can do all the right things, and still fall short, or be hurt, or can do all the wrong things and still benefit. Stalin is a perfect example of a sick asshole who succeeded at the misery of others. 

There is a natural claim of "will" for sure, but not a supernatural one, or "God's will".  There are simply humans in a natural world, just like you cant predict 100% of the time where the billiard balls will go on the initial break. One can only note when the other player is cheating, like moving the Q ball or pretending they didn't scratch. If God were a real character playing pool against you, you would never win. In the concept of an "All knowing God", who has a plan, in billiards terms, you can only be a sycophant or poker chip.

I was never particularly religious. We did not go to church, so I wasn’t indoctrinated while young. Despite that I assumed god was true because everyone around me had always said so. Then I took a religious history class in college where I learned a lot of things I had never heard before. First and foremost, of which was that your religion like practically every other religion on the planet could trace it is roots back to previous religions.

Your Old Testament has borrowed pieces from earlier Cannan, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian religions. Some of the book of Proverbs was taken practically verbatim from earlier Egyptian proverbs. The flood was borrowed from Mesopotamia as was the story of young Moses and the reed basket. Yahweh himself probably began as a Midianite god complete with a consort before being blended into the Canaanite pantheon and eventually adopted by the Jews. There is evidence that the Jews were polytheistic until at least the 4th century BCE. Some of this evidence can be found in the Old Testament itself.

Once I began to understand these things it wasn’t a big leap to Christianity or any of the modern religions weren’t any more likely true than the cargo cults after World War II were.

(June 1, 2021 at 12:50 pm)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Just a few points...

I don't believe in any gods, not zeus, thor, odin, ra, quetzalcoatl, yahweh, or jehovah for the same reason I don't believe in pixies, fairies or goblins

If a god created the universe (that is everything that exists) then where was he before he created it? (Heaven is not an answer because that would be part of “everything that exists”)

Historians have catalogued over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities, so how do you know you picked the correct one?

If a god wants to provide evidence that he is real (and why wouldn't he?) he should make his word appear in every home on the planet, at the same time, in whatever language the people spoke, printed on an unknown and indestructible material that was impossible to analyse... then I might start to think that this might be something worth looking at, but an old book on paper … no, he needs to do better than that!

Most christians come from christian families, most muslims come from muslim families, how many people look at the world’s religions before deciding on one? Most people spend more time deciding what shirt to wear than they do picking a religion

If i see some convincing, testable evidence of a god I would convert in a second... that's what convincing means, but I have not been convinced in 66 years!

Atheism is a conclusion not a belief

I would be interested to hear the convincing, testable evidence you have for perhaps believing in the subjective experiences of other people or believing there is an objective reality that exists independantly of minds or perhaps believing that a single proposition cannot be both true and false at the same time and in all ways.

(June 1, 2021 at 3:00 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 12:50 pm)zebo-the-fat Wrote: Just a few points...

I don't believe in any gods, not zeus, thor, odin, ra, quetzalcoatl, yahweh, or jehovah for the same reason I don't believe in pixies, fairies or goblins

If a god created the universe (that is everything that exists) then where was he before he created it? (Heaven is not an answer because that would be part of “everything that exists”)

Historians have catalogued over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities, so how do you know you picked the correct one?

If a god wants to provide evidence that he is real (and why wouldn't he?) he should make his word appear in every home on the planet, at the same time, in whatever language the people spoke, printed on an unknown and indestructible material that was impossible to analyse... then I might start to think that this might be something worth looking at, but an old book on paper … no, he needs to do better than that!

Most christians come from christian families, most muslims come from muslim families, how many people look at the world’s religions before deciding on one?  Most people spend more time deciding what shirt to wear than they do picking a religion

If i see some convincing, testable evidence of a god I would convert in a second... that's what convincing means, but I have not been convinced in 66 years!

Atheism is a conclusion not a belief

I would be interested to hear the convincing, testable evidence you have for perhaps believing in the subjective experiences of other people or believing there is an objective reality that exists independantly of minds or perhaps believing that a single proposition cannot be both true and false at the same time and in all ways.

(June 1, 2021 at 2:38 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: I was never particularly religious. We did not go to church, so I wasn’t indoctrinated while young. Despite that I assumed god was true because everyone around me had always said so. Then I took a religious history class in college where I learned a lot of things I had never heard before. First and foremost, of which was that your religion like practically every other religion on the planet could trace it is roots back to previous religions.

Your Old Testament has borrowed pieces from earlier Cannan, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian religions. Some of the book of Proverbs was taken practically verbatim from earlier Egyptian proverbs. The flood was borrowed from Mesopotamia as was the story of young Moses and the reed basket. Yahweh himself probably began as a Midianite god complete with a consort before being blended into the Canaanite pantheon and eventually adopted by the Jews. There is evidence that the Jews were polytheistic until at least the 4th century BCE. Some of this evidence can be found in the Old Testament itself.

Once I began to understand these things it wasn’t a big leap to Christianity or any of the modern religions weren’t any more likely true than the cargo cults after World War II were.

Not sure of Egyptian flood mythology but sure they have their own flood mythology. The only one I know of is the Epic Of Gilgamesh which stems from the Canaanite Ugartic text. But there was in Egyptian mythology the "book of the dead" mythology, and the "trinity mythology".

The Jews were not polytheistic, what happened was that there was a splinter sect of polytheistic Hebrews that got tired of the competition between city/state deities of the old polytheism and decided to elevate "El" the polytheistic god to the one "Yahweh" to be come the only one monotheistic God.

(June 1, 2021 at 3:44 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(June 1, 2021 at 2:38 pm)popeyespappy Wrote: I was never particularly religious. We did not go to church, so I wasn’t indoctrinated while young. Despite that I assumed god was true because everyone around me had always said so. Then I took a religious history class in college where I learned a lot of things I had never heard before. First and foremost, of which was that your religion like practically every other religion on the planet could trace it is roots back to previous religions.

Your Old Testament has borrowed pieces from earlier Cannan, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian religions. Some of the book of Proverbs was taken practically verbatim from earlier Egyptian proverbs. The flood was borrowed from Mesopotamia as was the story of young Moses and the reed basket. Yahweh himself probably began as a Midianite god complete with a consort before being blended into the Canaanite pantheon and eventually adopted by the Jews. There is evidence that the Jews were polytheistic until at least the 4th century BCE. Some of this evidence can be found in the Old Testament itself.

Once I began to understand these things it wasn’t a big leap to Christianity or any of the modern religions weren’t any more likely true than the cargo cults after World War II were.

Not sure of Egyptian flood mythology but sure they have their own flood mythology. The only one I know of is the Epic Of Gilgamesh which stems from the Canaanite Ugartic text. But there was in Egyptian mythology the "book of the dead" mythology, and the "trinity mythology".

The Jews were not polytheistic, what happened was that there was a splinter sect of polytheistic Hebrews that got tired of the competition between city/state deities of the old polytheism and decided to elevate "El" the polytheistic god to the one "Yahweh" to be come the only one monotheistic God.

A. Nobody said anything about Egyptian Flood mythology. I said Mesopotamian.
B. The Jews were polytheistic until at least the 4th century BCE. There is primary source, ie original letters from Jews to Jews dating to that time period, to support this. And their own damn book says so.