(September 6, 2021 at 5:24 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Israel... 
Most vaccinated country in the world. Was reporting over 90% vaxed
The claim was that it would stop covid... A testable claim...
Now lets examine the data...



Now its peaking higher than ever before... People have the sniffles in mid-summer, unheard of...
Their talking about the 4th shot over there in Israel because the first 3 didn't work

United Kingdom and USA... How many are vaxed? 70%?
Well the claim was that 70% was all that was needed, without booster shots...
And they claimed if they vaxed the elderly and it would fix the problem... Testable claims
Now lets check the data...

Uk is worse with the mid summer sniffles, now taking a 3rd shot cos the first 2 didn't work


USA is worse with the mid summer sniffles currently taking a 3rd shot cos the first 2 didn't work


Not only has the vaccine been not effective... Its actually got worse...
And its like this in all the countries with high vaccination rates....

Follow the science they say... Well the science debunks any claim that the vaccines are effective

Is there any evidence to support the claim that they are? If not then that claim is refuted

As for unwarranted attacks on my character... Im not entering into a discussion with such immature people.
If you want to discuss it then at least act like a civilized human being cos i never attacked anyone.
Not my problem that the facts triggered you

You realized that the right-side spikes largely represent the unvaccinated and what happens when non-vaccine measure are lifted too soon, right?

Right?

Boru

Remember this is the guy who doesn't know the difference between climate and weather. So of course, he wouldn't misunderstand the very charts he's using. Then thinks he's going with science 

Now watch him whine about being "attacked"

Also, the Israeli problem is easy  to explain and it isn't the vaccine that's the problem
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/02/...untry.html

The US and the UK lifted lockdowns too quickly and there is huge vaccine resistance in both countries. Which easily accounts for the spikes and why the overwhelming majority of people being hospitalized are unvaccinated.

So again he doesn't get it at all 

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Israel... 
Most vaccinated country in the world. Was reporting over 90% vaxed

Israel has 63% fully vaccinated

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: USA... How many are vaxed? 70%?

52% fully vaccinated

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Uk is worse with the mid summer sniffles, now taking a 3rd shot cos the first 2 didn't work

63% fully vaccinated

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Follow the science they say... Well the science debunks any claim that the vaccines are effective

Depending on how contagious SARS-CoV-2 (Delta) is, scientists predicted herd immunity somewhere in the 70%-85% ballpark. If we only had a major country....oh wait, Spain has 72% fully vaccinated. Lets have a look at the graph of Spain, shall we?

(September 6, 2021 at 6:23 am)Deesse23 Wrote:

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Israel... 
Most vaccinated country in the world. Was reporting over 90% vaxed

Israel has 63% fully vaccinated

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: USA... How many are vaxed? 70%?

52% fully vaccinated

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Uk is worse with the mid summer sniffles, now taking a 3rd shot cos the first 2 didn't work

63% fully vaccinated

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Follow the science they say... Well the science debunks any claim that the vaccines are effective

Depending on how contagious SARS-CoV-2 (Delta) is, scientists predicted herd immunity somewhere in the 70%-85% ballpark. If we only had a major country....oh wait, Spain has 72% fully vaccinated. Lets have a look at the graph of Spain, shall we?

But he's Mr Science 

Just for the record, here’s a list of countries and territories by their proportion of unvaccinated. And, as of today, only a few nations have reached the 70% threshold. That said, I should point out that, since this virus is still new to us, we’re still trying to get a handle on a lot of things, including the percentage of the population who’d need to be vaccinated before we reach herd immunity. And it turns out that 70% may be too optimistic, and the actual percentage may even be 85% or higher. The only two territories to reach that level of vaccination: Ascension Island (a remote island that lies in the Atlantic Ocean between Africa and Brazil, somewhat close to Saint-Helena, where Napoleon was exiled) and Gibraltar. And, apparently, a lot of people took multiple different vaccines or someone’s fudging the numbers, because their rates are actually above 100%.

(September 6, 2021 at 5:24 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 6, 2021 at 5:09 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Israel... 
Most vaccinated country in the world. Was reporting over 90% vaxed
The claim was that it would stop covid... A testable claim...
Now lets examine the data...



Now its peaking higher than ever before... People have the sniffles in mid-summer, unheard of...
Their talking about the 4th shot over there in Israel because the first 3 didn't work

United Kingdom and USA... How many are vaxed? 70%?
Well the claim was that 70% was all that was needed, without booster shots...
And they claimed if they vaxed the elderly and it would fix the problem... Testable claims
Now lets check the data...

Uk is worse with the mid summer sniffles, now taking a 3rd shot cos the first 2 didn't work


USA is worse with the mid summer sniffles currently taking a 3rd shot cos the first 2 didn't work


Not only has the vaccine been not effective... Its actually got worse...
And its like this in all the countries with high vaccination rates....

Follow the science they say... Well the science debunks any claim that the vaccines are effective

Is there any evidence to support the claim that they are? If not then that claim is refuted

As for unwarranted attacks on my character... Im not entering into a discussion with such immature people.
If you want to discuss it then at least act like a civilized human being cos i never attacked anyone.
Not my problem that the facts triggered you

You realized that the right-side spikes largely represent the unvaccinated and what happens when non-vaccine measure are lifted too soon, right?

Right?

Boru

Debating multiple people can be problematic so i'll just debate you for now if you don't mind

You say its the unvaxed... According to who? The mainstream media? With all the misinformation they have been giving they can't be trusted...
I can pull out a claim from conservative media contradicting that, so i prefer to just use the data we have
And if it is the unvaxed then why the continued alarmism... They chose their fate, let them deal with their fate and open up our cities

The claim was that a 70% vaccination rate would stop the pandemic and end lockdowns... Or that vaxing the elderly would do that
It hasn't... The alarmism is still higher than ever and the lockdowns are harsher than ever

An effective vaccine makes a person immune. 
But you can still catch and transmit the virus with these experimental vaccines which is why masks, lockdowns and such continue...

The fact that you need booster shots is another obvious fact that they don't work as well as expected
And who are these people testing positive? Cos the anti-vaxers aren't getting tested, thats for sure

To be fair, a counter argument could be that they are working because there are less deaths...
There are indeed less deaths... Doesn't prove it but it supports the claim that their working
But they still continue to focus on cases as the main marker
And my point is that it hasn't ended the pandemic and lockdowns like they said it would nor has it provided immunity

So to conclude...
Are they effective in producing immunity like they claimed? No... You can still catch and transmit covid
Is their claim of it ending the pandemic true? No... The pandemic continues along with all the alarmism that surrounds it

PS. If your wondering im pro choice... I have a doctors exemption for the vaccines so i can exercise my right to choose... Many don't have that right anymore. Their being bribed, blackmailed, extorted, coerced and even held hostage for ransom to take these experimental needles. All of which are criminal offences... Im lucky to be still working as the state i live in Australia hasn't had to deal with it, but on the mainland, its ludacris, more people are dying from lockdown suicides than covid now and many people i know over their are really suffering in many different ways

---

(September 6, 2021 at 12:30 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: That said, I should point out that, since this virus is still new to us, we’re still trying to get a handle on a lot of things, including the percentage of the population who’d need to be vaccinated before we reach herd immunity.

That brings up another point. The fact that its a new virus is exactly the reason why there needs to be public debate...
Instead we have heavy censorship of professors, doctors, scientists and other experts who have differing opinions which is totally against science

Stifling debate is the mark of a pseudoscience... The truth doesn't censor

But for now im focusing on the fact that the vaccines haven't provided immunity like they said it would and hasn't ended the pandemic and lockdowns 
If you make a claim in science and its wrong then its refuted. If i claim the sun won't come up tomorrow and im wrong then my claim is refuted
They made these claims and they were wrong. Such claims are scientifically refuted... Follow the science they say... Deductive reasoning... Thats science...

So a long rant filled with more ignorance and no real points .

No big surprise 

I rule this person a troll with nothing to contribute this forum

(September 7, 2021 at 4:34 am)Ronaldo Wrote:

(September 6, 2021 at 5:24 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: You realized that the right-side spikes largely represent the unvaccinated and what happens when non-vaccine measure are lifted too soon, right?

Right?

Boru

Debating multiple people can be problematic so i'll just debate you for now if you don't mind

You say its the unvaxed... According to who? The mainstream media? With all the misinformation they have been giving they can't be trusted...
I can pull out a claim from conservative media contradicting that, so i prefer to just use the data we have
And if it is the unvaxed then why the continued alarmism... They chose their fate, let them deal with their fate and open up our cities

The claim was that a 70% vaccination rate would stop the pandemic and end lockdowns... Or that vaxing the elderly would do that
It hasn't... The alarmism is still higher than ever and the lockdowns are harsher than ever

An effective vaccine makes a person immune. 
But you can still catch and transmit the virus with these experimental vaccines which is why masks, lockdowns and such continue...

The fact that you need booster shots is another obvious fact that they don't work as well as expected
And who are these people testing positive? Cos the anti-vaxers aren't getting tested, thats for sure

To be fair, a counter argument could be that they are working because there are less deaths...
There are indeed less deaths... Doesn't prove it but it supports the claim that their working
But they still continue to focus on cases as the main marker
And my point is that it hasn't ended the pandemic and lockdowns like they said it would nor has it provided immunity

So to conclude...
Are they effective in producing immunity like they claimed? No... You can still catch and transmit covid
Is their claim of it ending the pandemic true? No... The pandemic continues along with all the alarmism that surrounds it

PS. If your wondering im pro choice... I have a doctors exemption for the vaccines so i can exercise my right to choose... Many don't have that right anymore. Their being bribed, blackmailed, extorted, coerced and even held hostage for ransom to take these experimental needles. All of which are criminal offences... Im lucky to be still working as the state i live in Australia hasn't had to deal with it, but on the mainland, its ludacris, more people are dying from lockdown suicides than covid now and many people i know over their are really suffering in many different ways

---

1. No, I don't mind.

2. But you're using the data in a selective, bias-confirming manner. Yes, cases are spiking in some areas, but you jump to attributing that to vaccine failure. This is a no good way to use data. Since cases are spiking in those areas with lower vaccination rates, it makes perfect sense to attribute the spike (provisionally, at least) not to the failure of the vaccine, but to failure to GET the vaccine. And alarmism is still necessary even with the unvaxxed, simply because these are the ones who are MUCH more likely to spread the disease. You live in Australia, where something like 30% of the population is fully vaccinated. This means nearly 70% of the population is still at elevated risk.

3. As I recall, there was never a consensus about what level of vaccination would produce herd immunity. But I'll play along and assume it's 70%.
Have a butcher's at this and look at the countries who've reached the 70% mark (the UK, US and Israel are notably absent). So, you need to stop whinging that vaccine don't work when 70% of the population has been vaccinated, and then pointing to countries with a spike in cases where 70% have NOT been vaccinated.

4. An effective vaccine doesn't 'make a person immune' - it confers an increased level of immunity. Read up on Dr. Jenner's work - nothing's changed. No, masks and lockdowns continue (or more correctly, resume) because local governments, at the first sign of a drop in new cases, re-opened their economies too soon. Their stated reason for this was that dollars are more important than people.

5. Plenty of vaccines require boosters, this is nothing new. But you're correct - anti-vaxxers aren't getting tested, which is why the rate of new hospital admissions for COVID directly correlates with the number of unvaccinated people in any given area. They wait until they're taking up an ICU bed to confirm COVID.

6. You point is wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. Vaccine resistors are the ones fueling the spike. Breakthroughs account for a tiny, tiny fraction of new cases and an even smaller fraction of new hospital admissions.

7. To conclude: You're wrong about the level of vaccinations, wrong about immunity, wrong about why the pandemic hasn't ended.

8 (your post script). I sorry and saddened that you have this 'choice' - the 'choice' to put other people at risk. Luckily for you, it isn't up to me. If it were, you and people like you would be dragged out of your home or place of work or the coffee shop where you're working on your dystopian novel, restrained, and be vaccinated by force.

Boru

(September 7, 2021 at 6:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 4:34 am)Ronaldo Wrote: Debating multiple people can be problematic so i'll just debate you for now if you don't mind

You say its the unvaxed... According to who? The mainstream media? With all the misinformation they have been giving they can't be trusted...
I can pull out a claim from conservative media contradicting that, so i prefer to just use the data we have
And if it is the unvaxed then why the continued alarmism... They chose their fate, let them deal with their fate and open up our cities

The claim was that a 70% vaccination rate would stop the pandemic and end lockdowns... Or that vaxing the elderly would do that
It hasn't... The alarmism is still higher than ever and the lockdowns are harsher than ever

An effective vaccine makes a person immune. 
But you can still catch and transmit the virus with these experimental vaccines which is why masks, lockdowns and such continue...

The fact that you need booster shots is another obvious fact that they don't work as well as expected
And who are these people testing positive? Cos the anti-vaxers aren't getting tested, thats for sure

To be fair, a counter argument could be that they are working because there are less deaths...
There are indeed less deaths... Doesn't prove it but it supports the claim that their working
But they still continue to focus on cases as the main marker
And my point is that it hasn't ended the pandemic and lockdowns like they said it would nor has it provided immunity

So to conclude...
Are they effective in producing immunity like they claimed? No... You can still catch and transmit covid
Is their claim of it ending the pandemic true? No... The pandemic continues along with all the alarmism that surrounds it

PS. If your wondering im pro choice... I have a doctors exemption for the vaccines so i can exercise my right to choose... Many don't have that right anymore. Their being bribed, blackmailed, extorted, coerced and even held hostage for ransom to take these experimental needles. All of which are criminal offences... Im lucky to be still working as the state i live in Australia hasn't had to deal with it, but on the mainland, its ludacris, more people are dying from lockdown suicides than covid now and many people i know over their are really suffering in many different ways

---

1. No, I don't mind.

2. But you're using the data in a selective, bias-confirming manner. Yes, cases are spiking in some areas, but you jump to attributing that to vaccine failure. This is a no good way to use data. Since cases are spiking in those areas with lower vaccination rates, it makes perfect sense to attribute the spike (provisionally, at least) not to the failure of the vaccine, but to failure to GET the vaccine. And alarmism is still necessary even with the unvaxxed, simply because these are the ones who are MUCH more likely to spread the disease. You live in Australia, where something like 30% of the population is fully vaccinated. This means nearly 70% of the population is still at elevated risk.

3. As I recall, there was never a consensus about what level of vaccination would produce herd immunity. But I'll play along and assume it's 70%.
Have a butcher's at this and look at the countries who've reached the 70% mark (the UK, US and Israel are notably absent). So, you need to stop whinging that vaccine don't work when 70% of the population has been vaccinated, and then pointing to countries with a spike in cases where 70% have NOT been vaccinated.

4. An effective vaccine doesn't 'make a person immune' - it confers an increased level of immunity. Read up on Dr. Jenner's work - nothing's changed. No, masks and lockdowns continue (or more correctly, resume) because local governments, at the first sign of a drop in new cases, re-opened their economies too soon. Their stated reason for this was that dollars are more important than people.

5. Plenty of vaccines require boosters, this is nothing new. But you're correct - anti-vaxxers aren't getting tested, which is why the rate of new hospital admissions for COVID directly correlates with the number of unvaccinated people in any given area. They wait until they're taking up an ICU bed to confirm COVID.

6. You point is wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. Vaccine resistors are the ones fueling the spike. Breakthroughs account for a tiny, tiny fraction of new cases and an even smaller fraction of new hospital admissions.

7. To conclude: You're wrong about the level of vaccinations, wrong about immunity, wrong about why the pandemic hasn't ended.

8 (your post script). I sorry and saddened that you have this 'choice' - the 'choice' to put other people at risk. Luckily for you, it isn't up to me. If it were, you and people like you would be dragged out of your home or place of work or the coffee shop where you're working on your dystopian novel, restrained, and be vaccinated by force.

Boru

Now expect a novel-length response where he gets everything wrong and were forced to correct him again or this essentally 

(September 7, 2021 at 6:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: 8 (your post script). I sorry and saddened that you have this 'choice' - the 'choice' to put other people at risk. Luckily for you, it isn't up to me. If it were, you and people like you would be dragged out of your home or place of work or the coffee shop where you're working on your dystopian novel, restrained, and be vaccinated by force.

Boru

I wouldn't force a vaccine on anyone, but I would be happy to see them confined to their homes until they either got vaccinated or the pandemic ended.  This is a method that has been used in the past.  If you want to play in public, you should be required to not be a carrier of disease.

(September 7, 2021 at 10:55 am)Spongebob Wrote:

(September 7, 2021 at 6:19 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: 8 (your post script). I sorry and saddened that you have this 'choice' - the 'choice' to put other people at risk. Luckily for you, it isn't up to me. If it were, you and people like you would be dragged out of your home or place of work or the coffee shop where you're working on your dystopian novel, restrained, and be vaccinated by force.

Boru

I wouldn't force a vaccine on anyone, but I would be happy to see them confined to their homes until they either got vaccinated or the pandemic ended.  This is a method that has been used in the past.  If you want to play in public, you should be required to not be a carrier of disease.

I’ll go even farther: anyone not vaccinated would be required to get the shots, or be charged, fined, and jailed for reckless endangerment.

These are people that have made a conscious choice to put YOU at risk of a deadly disease. Fuck them, and fuck their ‘rights’.

Boru