(November 21, 2021 at 7:04 pm)Agnostic1 Wrote: Religion, sadly, will never go away. No matter how much science you put forward, religious followers want to control people with their beliefs.

As with many other things, like astrology. No matter how much science you put forward, you still get a daily horoscope in most newspapers and people believe it.

Both are scams and therefore business, so as long as there is money there will be religion, astrology, acupuncture, palm reading, etc.

I mean, let's say we were living in a Star Trek TNG economy where everything was free, do you really think that the Pope or megachurch pastors or David Miscavige or Ken Ham would actually give a fuck if people believe in their particular brand of shit?

As long as humans are scared, self absorbed, and stupid, religion will exist.

(November 22, 2021 at 1:24 am)no one Wrote: As long as humans are scared, self absorbed, and stupid, religion will exist.

It was widely predicted by some experts that with COVID-19 a large evangelical revival would occur in the US akin to The Great Awakenings. Didn't happen. And so, maybe we're making some progress here.

(November 22, 2021 at 1:24 am)no one Wrote: As long as humans are scared, self absorbed, and stupid, religion will exist.

You're a real barrel of laughs huh? Lighten up dude.

(November 21, 2021 at 7:04 pm)Agnostic1 Wrote: Religion, sadly, will never go away. No matter how much science you put forward, religious followers want to control people with their beliefs. I often wonder how many religious people would pass a lie detector test that they DO, in fact, BELIEVE and that religion isn't just a handy label to put on yourself to have (imagined) moral hierarchy. Every religious person I have ever known is a hypocrite and goes against their own beliefs and they always have some lame excuse or they just throw dirt over the problem. I am so tired of people saying they are going to pray for me when it is ALWAYS said in retaliatory sarcasm. If you're going to REALLY pray FOR me then great! I could use a LOT more money, thank you. I want to live to be 125. I want to have a huge birthday party, every year attended by celebrities, I want my kids to have their every dream and wish come true and I will keep you updated so you can make sure when you 'pray' for me that you don't miss anything.

I feel like religious people have all the rights in this country. They can start churches and don't have to pay taxes. The closest thing we have to an Atheist "church" is the Universal Unitarian church that STILL has sermons based on cult or sect spiritual beliefs. AND, of course, all religions are welcome to attend a UU church. Where is the church of science? Or maybe not a "church" since religious folks have coined that term but maybe a gathering place for atheists? I would go every week if I could find one. 

I recently joined a MeetUp for Atheists. I am waiting for them to approve me!

Like others have said, it has to do with emotions. We are all emotional machines. We are survival machines.
Dumping your religion and becoming atheist, agnostic, ignitist or whatever you want to call yourself, is accepting that you are going to die.
(unless you want to believe you still have an undying soul).

I think science is great and acts as a cure for some people at least. A little learning from history, anthropology, other religions, human behavior helps to dump religion.

There are other aspects to religion as well. The jewish flavor of religions are ancient, so there has been a few millennia of tradition. No one can prove that Moses was talking to the jewish god or not, no one can prove he did not split the Nile river in 2, etc.
Science doesn’t give any guarantees that such things are none sense, even though, I think those magical stories are none sense.

Then, you have Pascal’s wager. There is the threat of hell.
A few christians have mentioned hell to me when I had discussions with them.

Quote:I am so tired of people saying they are going to pray for me when it is ALWAYS said in retaliatory sarcasm. If you're going to REALLY pray FOR me then great!

What they mean is that you are going to hell.
They do the same with cancer patients. They know that a person that has cancer is in big trouble.
In your case, you are in big trouble bc you did not join judaism v2.0 or whatever version it is.

Quote:I recently joined a MeetUp for Atheists. I am waiting for them to approve me!

That would be nice. Did you meet anyone?

(November 21, 2021 at 7:04 pm)Agnostic1 Wrote: Religion, sadly, will never go away. No matter how much science you put forward, religious followers want to control people with their beliefs. I often wonder how many religious people would pass a lie detector test that they DO, in fact, BELIEVE and that religion isn't just a handy label to put on yourself to have (imagined) moral hierarchy. Every religious person I have ever known is a hypocrite and goes against their own beliefs and they always have some lame excuse or they just throw dirt over the problem. I am so tired of people saying they are going to pray for me when it is ALWAYS said in retaliatory sarcasm. If you're going to REALLY pray FOR me then great! I could use a LOT more money, thank you. I want to live to be 125. I want to have a huge birthday party, every year attended by celebrities, I want my kids to have their every dream and wish come true and I will keep you updated so you can make sure when you 'pray' for me that you don't miss anything.

I feel like religious people have all the rights in this country. They can start churches and don't have to pay taxes. The closest thing we have to an Atheist "church" is the Universal Unitarian church that STILL has sermons based on cult or sect spiritual beliefs. AND, of course, all religions are welcome to attend a UU church. Where is the church of science? Or maybe not a "church" since religious folks have coined that term but maybe a gathering place for atheists? I would go every week if I could find one. 

I recently joined a MeetUp for Atheists. I am waiting for them to approve me!

If you accept that religion won't go away, and I agree, then why are you "astonished"? 

I'd only use the word "astonished" in the context that people cling to the past so much. But I've always accepted to greater or lesser degrees, humans are tribal and superstitious.

(November 24, 2021 at 5:43 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 21, 2021 at 7:04 pm)Agnostic1 Wrote: Religion, sadly, will never go away. No matter how much science you put forward, religious followers want to control people with their beliefs. I often wonder how many religious people would pass a lie detector test that they DO, in fact, BELIEVE and that religion isn't just a handy label to put on yourself to have (imagined) moral hierarchy. Every religious person I have ever known is a hypocrite and goes against their own beliefs and they always have some lame excuse or they just throw dirt over the problem. I am so tired of people saying they are going to pray for me when it is ALWAYS said in retaliatory sarcasm. If you're going to REALLY pray FOR me then great! I could use a LOT more money, thank you. I want to live to be 125. I want to have a huge birthday party, every year attended by celebrities, I want my kids to have their every dream and wish come true and I will keep you updated so you can make sure when you 'pray' for me that you don't miss anything.

I feel like religious people have all the rights in this country. They can start churches and don't have to pay taxes. The closest thing we have to an Atheist "church" is the Universal Unitarian church that STILL has sermons based on cult or sect spiritual beliefs. AND, of course, all religions are welcome to attend a UU church. Where is the church of science? Or maybe not a "church" since religious folks have coined that term but maybe a gathering place for atheists? I would go every week if I could find one. 

I recently joined a MeetUp for Atheists. I am waiting for them to approve me!

If you accept that religion won't go away, and I agree, then why are you "astonished"? 

I'd only use the word "astonished" in the context that people cling to the past so much. But I've always accepted to greater or lesser degrees, humans are tribal and superstitious.

 
I'm neither astonished nor do I especially want religion to go away. I remind myself that the religion of Ancient Egypt lasted over three thousand years. The boils on the arse of society and parasitic priestly castes which the make up the present organised religion, will eventually fade away, though atrophy or revolution.

Religion will continue to exist as long as it meets important human needs.  It tends to be reduced when people are educated and affluent. Then it tends to be replaced by pragmatic philosophies  such as secular humanism.

When people remain poor and ignorant, religion can be replaced by dictatorships and personality cults. EG Stalinist Russia, China's Mao, Franco, Castro, Pol Pot and that  rotund little specimen in North Korea, to mention a few.  (there's something truly disgusting about a leader being fat while his people starve to death)

So, I'm not in a hurry to abolish religion, until I know what will replace it. Popularist leaders such as Donald Trump aren't far from dictatorship.

A lesson from which America Failed to earn was Governor Huey P  "The Kingfisher" Long of Louisiana. Some one shot him. 


Huey Pierce Long Jr. (August 30, 1893 – September 10, 1935), nicknamed "the Kingfish", was an American lawyer and politician who served as the 40th governor of Louisiana from 1928 to 1932 and as a United States Senator from 1932 until his assassination in 1935. He was a populist member of the Democratic Party and rose to national prominence during the Great Depression for his vocal criticism of President Franklin D. Roosevelt and his New Deal, which Long deemed insufficiently radical. As the political leader of Louisiana, he commanded wide networks of supporters and often took forceful action. A controversial figure, Long is celebrated as a populist champion of the poor or, conversely, denounced as a fascistic .

Huey Long - Wikipedia

(November 24, 2021 at 5:43 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 21, 2021 at 7:04 pm)Agnostic1 Wrote: Religion, sadly, will never go away. No matter how much science you put forward, religious followers want to control people with their beliefs. I often wonder how many religious people would pass a lie detector test that they DO, in fact, BELIEVE and that religion isn't just a handy label to put on yourself to have (imagined) moral hierarchy. Every religious person I have ever known is a hypocrite and goes against their own beliefs and they always have some lame excuse or they just throw dirt over the problem. I am so tired of people saying they are going to pray for me when it is ALWAYS said in retaliatory sarcasm. If you're going to REALLY pray FOR me then great! I could use a LOT more money, thank you. I want to live to be 125. I want to have a huge birthday party, every year attended by celebrities, I want my kids to have their every dream and wish come true and I will keep you updated so you can make sure when you 'pray' for me that you don't miss anything.

I feel like religious people have all the rights in this country. They can start churches and don't have to pay taxes. The closest thing we have to an Atheist "church" is the Universal Unitarian church that STILL has sermons based on cult or sect spiritual beliefs. AND, of course, all religions are welcome to attend a UU church. Where is the church of science? Or maybe not a "church" since religious folks have coined that term but maybe a gathering place for atheists? I would go every week if I could find one. 

I recently joined a MeetUp for Atheists. I am waiting for them to approve me!

If you accept that religion won't go away, and I agree, then why are you "astonished"? 

I'd only use the word "astonished" in the context that people cling to the past so much. But I've always accepted to greater or lesser degrees, humans are tribal and superstitious.

I agree. There is no reason to be surprised, once you know humans well enough.
It is a big planet with billions of all sorts of people living in all sorts of conditions.
Some are curious, some are less curious, some want an education for education sake, some just want a diploma and a nice paycheck.

Not every human is going to be a genius.

If some of them are comfortable with a certain religion, then let them enjoy their religion.
I think everyone has a certain natural state. Some are attracted to helping others cross the street, some don’t want to work and prefer to steal purses, some will kill you for 100$ and less, etc.

I remember a part from a Richard Dawkins video. I think he was in the UK. There was a certain teacher and he said something like this:
Without religion, I don’t know how to teach these boys morals, how to teach them that stealing is wrong.
There was a boy who told me, before taking this class, it had never occurred to me that stealing was wrong.

Then the camera shifts to Richard Dawkins alone, facing the camera and I think he said:
I did not know what to tell that guy. Certainly, religion can be used to control the behavior of those boys.


^^^^^I think that Richard Dawkins or me can give them reasons why building a society that works together is better than a society of thieves.
You can also invite some 70 y old from prison who has been there most of his life for a murder. Maybe that will start a spark in their mind.

It’s just that it is too time consuming. Maybe christianity is a nice shortcut:
Tell them to behave or they are going to hell, since the big cop in the sky is watching.

(November 21, 2021 at 7:37 pm)Agnostic1 Wrote: Well, I am one of those far out Atheist Agnostics that believes in life after death. I don't believe in death at all actually. I believe life continues in a different form that we can't see and it is a natural consequence of evolution. I also think savants get their gifts from the universe and I think that is science as well. I'd like to start my own church! lol

Well, this sounds a lot like a personal "religious" belief.  You would fit well in a UU church (it is Unitarian Universalist, and I'm a UU).

I do believe in death. 

I also believe that the "self" is an emergent construct, and not a fundamental thing.  I believe that consciousness (while also an emergent thing) is more fundamental than the self.  Self is reliant on memory and persistence to define itself.  Lose that memory, and you are literally a different person.  For that matter, I am a different person than I was 30 years ago, though I share the same memories.  Consciousness to me is the mystical thing of value, and when my "self" dies, consciousness will live on in others.

There - I have a my own mysticism.  So does everyone else, including you, and that is why religion will never die.

I hear what you are saying. I don't consider myself religious as i don't believe in an entity that controls everything or has power over everything but I can see why you might see it that way. There is actually a UU Church right down the street from me and I would love to go, but I ma in WA State and we are strict about Covid, so everything is on Zoom right now. My UU church tends to do 'sermons' about all kinds of beliefs. If I knew how to write a book, I would! lol. I am that convinced of my theories.