(February 14, 2022 at 6:29 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 13, 2022 at 1:24 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Yeah, because what does Michael Phelps know about swimming anyhow. I will defer to you from now on to get my knowledge about swimming and sports.

I'm not shitting on trans people. Trans women are women. Like Michael Phelps ex said, "It can't be a woman's sport if it doesn't include all women, period." I agree. Which is why I am of the opinion that "women's" sports shouldn't be a thing. Instead, bio male and bio female sports should take their place.

What about bio men and bio women who fall way outside of the average for their biological sex? Where do they belong?

What about them? When Phelps was referring to fairness, his example was performance enhancing drugs. Just because someone is brighter than me, that doesn't mean I should get to cheat on a test to make things 'fairer' and to even the playing field, so Michael Phelps' point made perfect sense. We all play by the same rules when taking a test, and sports is something that's supposed to have the same principle behind it. Of course Michael Phelps was born to be the best. A freak of nature never seen before. Of course things are not 'fair' in that sense, and no one is arguing for some absurd notion of absolute fairness where everyone in a race is the exact same and just as good as each other so things are entirely fair. That is a silly argument, and pointing out that Phelps was born better than everyone else, is not a reasonable justification for throwing out all divisions based on sex or all weight classes. These things exist for a reason. And thankfully many trans people are speaking out against what is happening to sports right now, like trans Olympic champion Caitlyn Jenner and some others I've seen.

The participation of trans people at the top level of sport should be evidence-based.

The problem is that there is not enough evidence. Then the discussion becomes about culture wars.

(February 16, 2022 at 1:50 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(February 14, 2022 at 6:29 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: What about bio men and bio women who fall way outside of the average for their biological sex? Where do they belong?

What about them? When Phelps was referring to fairness, his example was performance enhancing drugs. Just because someone is brighter than me, that doesn't mean I should get to cheat on a test to make things 'fairer' and to even the playing field, so Michael Phelps' point made perfect sense. We all play by the same rules when taking a test, and sports is something that's supposed to have the same principle behind it. Of course Michael Phelps was born to be the best. A freak of nature never seen before. Of course things are not 'fair' in that sense, and no one is arguing for some absurd notion of absolute fairness where everyone in a race is the exact same and just as good as each other so things are entirely fair. That is a silly argument, and pointing out that Phelps was born better than everyone else, is not a reasonable justification for throwing out all divisions based on sex or all weight classes. These things exist for a reason. And thankfully many trans people are speaking out against what is happening to sports right now, like trans Olympic champion Caitlyn Jenner and some others I've seen.

If it’s “not fair” for trans women to participate in women’s athletics because of their natural physical advantages, then why is it fair for, say, a biological female who happens to fall naturally outside of, and above the athletic physical abilities of the average biological female to participate in women’s athletics? I’m not making an argument or talking about Michael Phelps. I’m asking you to defend your reasoning.

(February 16, 2022 at 1:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 16, 2022 at 1:50 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: What about them? When Phelps was referring to fairness, his example was performance enhancing drugs. Just because someone is brighter than me, that doesn't mean I should get to cheat on a test to make things 'fairer' and to even the playing field, so Michael Phelps' point made perfect sense. We all play by the same rules when taking a test, and sports is something that's supposed to have the same principle behind it. Of course Michael Phelps was born to be the best. A freak of nature never seen before. Of course things are not 'fair' in that sense, and no one is arguing for some absurd notion of absolute fairness where everyone in a race is the exact same and just as good as each other so things are entirely fair. That is a silly argument, and pointing out that Phelps was born better than everyone else, is not a reasonable justification for throwing out all divisions based on sex or all weight classes. These things exist for a reason. And thankfully many trans people are speaking out against what is happening to sports right now, like trans Olympic champion Caitlyn Jenner and some others I've seen.

If it’s “not fair” for trans women to participate in women’s athletics because of their natural physical advantages, then why is it fair for, say, a biological female who happens to fall naturally outside of, and above the athletic physical abilities of the average biological female to participate in women’s athletics? I’m not making an argument or talking about Michael Phelps. I’m asking you to defend your reasoning.

Because that woman is not cheating like trans women are. Let's take Serena Williams for example. Physical freaks of nature like her are great for the sport. Great for ratings. Serena Williams remains a part of the women's leagues because she's not good enough to play with the men. If you let trans women play with bio women, by that logic, regular old cis men should also get to go against the bio women, because by your logic, it's not cheating if their bodies are just biologically superior, right? Michael Phelps exists and Shaq exists, and they have an unfair advantage against the other men, so therefore by your logic, any man should be allowed to join a women's league, because natural advantage is irrelevant, right? That's where your whole argument falls apart. If you let in trans women, you should have to let in any old cis man as well, and it ceases to be a women's league, and bio women are no longer making money and getting endorsements and scholarships and attention.

(February 16, 2022 at 7:26 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(February 16, 2022 at 1:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If it’s “not fair” for trans women to participate in women’s athletics because of their natural physical advantages, then why is it fair for, say, a biological female who happens to fall naturally outside of, and above the athletic physical abilities of the average biological female to participate in women’s athletics? I’m not making an argument or talking about Michael Phelps. I’m asking you to defend your reasoning.

Because that woman is not cheating like trans women are. Let's take Serena Williams for example. Physical freaks of nature like her are great for the sport. Great for ratings. Serena Williams remains a part of the women's leagues because she's not good enough to play with the men. If you let trans women play with bio women, by that logic, regular old cis men should also get to go against the bio women, because by your logic, it's not cheating if their bodies are just biologically superior, right? Michael Phelps exists and Shaq exists, and they have an unfair advantage against the other men, so therefore by your logic, any man should be allowed to join a women's league, because natural advantage is irrelevant, right? That's where your whole argument falls apart. If you let in trans women, you should have to let in any old cis man as well, and it ceases to be a women's league, and women are no longer making money and getting endorsements and scholarships and attention.

You have proven many times over that you are a dipshit of mammoth proportions.

Just STFU and find another forum to infest.

You seem to think we don't see you arguing both sides.

You suck as the edgelord you try to be.

I think men should compete against women.

(February 16, 2022 at 7:26 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(February 16, 2022 at 1:17 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: If it’s “not fair” for trans women to participate in women’s athletics because of their natural physical advantages, then why is it fair for, say, a biological female who happens to fall naturally outside of, and above the athletic physical abilities of the average biological female to participate in women’s athletics? I’m not making an argument or talking about Michael Phelps. I’m asking you to defend your reasoning.

Because that woman is not cheating like trans women are. Let's take Serena Williams for example. Physical freaks of nature like her are great for the sport. Great for ratings. Serena Williams remains a part of the women's leagues because she's not good enough to play with the men.

Quote:If you let trans women play with bio women, by that logic, regular old cis men should also get to go against the bio women, because by your logic, it's not cheating if their bodies are just biologically superior, right?

Right. Why are we even categorizing athletics according to biological sex? Why don’t we group people based on physiological markers that actually refer to the performance of the sport (the way boxers and UFC fighters are classed by weight) rather than a person’s genitalia? Where is the problem here? Your whole objection to mixing genitalia refers back to physiological markers of strength and performance anyway. It kind of seems like you’re making the same argument I am.

(February 16, 2022 at 8:59 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 16, 2022 at 7:26 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Because that woman is not cheating like trans women are. Let's take Serena Williams for example. Physical freaks of nature like her are great for the sport. Great for ratings. Serena Williams remains a part of the women's leagues because she's not good enough to play with the men.

Quote:If you let trans women play with bio women, by that logic, regular old cis men should also get to go against the bio women, because by your logic, it's not cheating if their bodies are just biologically superior, right?

Right. Why are we even categorizing athletics according to biological sex? Why don’t we group people based on physiological markers that actually refer to the performance of the sport (the way boxers and UFC fighters are classed by weight) rather than a person’s genitalia? Where is the problem here? Your whole objection to mixing genitalia refers back to physiological markers of strength and performance anyway. It kind of seems like you’re making the same argument I am.

We don't let CIS men play with women because they aren't women Trans women are regardless of their biological features

(February 17, 2022 at 5:19 am)Helios Wrote:

(February 16, 2022 at 8:59 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Right. Why are we even categorizing athletics according to biological sex? Why don’t we group people based on physiological markers that actually refer to the performance of the sport (the way boxers and UFC fighters are classed by weight) rather than a person’s genitalia? Where is the problem here? Your whole objection to mixing genitalia refers back to physiological markers of strength and performance anyway. It kind of seems like you’re making the same argument I am.

We don't let CIS men play with women because they aren't women Trans women are regardless of their biological features

Right. And my point is, why? Why not group people based on physiological markers related to the sport they’re participating in rather than their genitalia?

(February 16, 2022 at 8:59 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(February 16, 2022 at 7:26 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Because that woman is not cheating like trans women are. Let's take Serena Williams for example. Physical freaks of nature like her are great for the sport. Great for ratings. Serena Williams remains a part of the women's leagues because she's not good enough to play with the men.

Quote:If you let trans women play with bio women, by that logic, regular old cis men should also get to go against the bio women, because by your logic, it's not cheating if their bodies are just biologically superior, right?

Right. Why are we even categorizing athletics according to biological sex? Why don’t we group people based on physiological markers that actually refer to the performance of the sport (the way boxers and UFC fighters are classed by weight) rather than a person’s genitalia? Where is the problem here? Your whole objection to mixing genitalia refers back to physiological markers of strength and performance anyway. It kind of seems like you’re making the same argument I am.

Depends on the sport mostly, but what you posted here can't be done with the same effect as a male vs female division For example the same weight class fighting it out in UFC won't really make sense. Then there are sports like, let's go with sprinting - there is no weight class or height requirement or anything really. So when mixing male and female in sprinting you get a natural separation in the end anyway, as male times will be much better than female times. So not having a female sprinting or female UFC, it'll basically eliminate females from competing at the top level of the sport at all. 

But as I said those are just two examples and highly depends on the sport.