Reading reports that the 4th Guards Tank Division has been destroyed in Trosnayets as the Ukrainian forces have retaken that town. This is a premier Russian division, and famous for its role in the battle of Stalingrad.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/158...kraine-ont

(March 28, 2022 at 11:15 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Reading reports that the 4th Guards Tank Division has been destroyed in Trosnayets as the Ukrainian forces have retaken that town. This is a premier Russian division, and famous for its role in the battle of Stalingrad.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/158...kraine-ont

Never underestimate the power of poor planning and rampant corruption to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Boru

exactly what does a division being destroyed mean? and how much of what is meant is true? there have been a lot of over the top propaganda claims about casualties inflicted, but my impression is ukrainian exaggeration and falsifications have been more egregious than Russian ones.

Quote:the good that will come of it the fact that the pile of ukrainian and russian corpses resulting from Russian effort to keep NATO out of ukraine will be a insignificant molehill next to the real mountain of corpses that will no doubt accumulate if an America, establishing a window of opportunity in which it is unconstrained by the balance of nuclear power,  take advantage of this window to attempt to aggrandize itself in Eurasia, particularly east asia and the west pacific,  and consolidate its hegemony there.   Its last attempt to do the similar in Iraq may have inflicted only a few thousand direct american dead, it’s direct and long term consequences in the iraq, syria, and afghanistan likely resulted in several million excess deaths across the region.

Your delusion that this is some kind of defense against NATO rather than a lunatic despot's attempt to expand his own power is just sad. And the even bigger he will be satisfied so long as his neighbors don't enact their own self-determination and join Nato is even sadder. You suffer the notion that having two imperialist states will somehow lead to fewer deaths than having one as if the polarity is any less bloody than the hegemony and mere equity of nuclear weapons will somehow bring about peace and end in anything other than chaos and rampant slaughter. No good will come of this no matter how much you try and convince yourself otherwise. Russia's actions are madness and your only one here who can't seem to see that.

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Quote:exactly what does a division being destroyed mean? and how much of what is meant is true? there have been a lot of over the top propaganda claims about casualties inflicted, but my impression is ukrainian exaggeration and falsifications have been more egregious than Russian ones.

Yes ye's anything you don't like is propaganda 

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(March 28, 2022 at 11:15 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Reading reports that the 4th Guards Tank Division has been destroyed in Trosnayets as the Ukrainian forces have retaken that town. This is a premier Russian division, and famous for its role in the battle of Stalingrad.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/158...kraine-ont

Good 

yeah, adult’s world would seem sad to children.

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(March 28, 2022 at 10:28 am)Helios Wrote: What you are preaching isn't a necessary evil. It's just a sad attempt to justify evil. There is no balance achieved by it only chaos and a mountain of corpses.

it is not necessarily evil in your eyes?   i must try harder.

Quote:yeah, adult’s world would seem sad to children.

Lol, your opinions on international affairs are about as mature as Dora The Explorer and its sadness comes from the mere fact you delude yourself it will work. 

Quote:it is not necessarily evil in your eyes?   i must try harder.

It's not a necessary evil period 

I am not evil, period? I just lost all reason for living.

I never said that. I said your ideas are not a necessary evil. They were just justifications for evil. As in the evil in question is not needed or justified despite your attempts to justify it.

The original comment

Quote:What you are preaching isn't a necessary evil. It's just a sad attempt to justify evil. There is no balance achieved by it only chaos and a mountain of corpses.

(March 28, 2022 at 11:15 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Reading reports that the 4th Guards Tank Division has been destroyed in Trosnayets as the Ukrainian forces have retaken that town. This is a premier Russian division, and famous for its role in the battle of Stalingrad.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/158...kraine-ont

It’s rather telling that, despite playing a crucial role in Stalingrad, they somehow didn’t learn from its big lesson: never underestimate the ability of a people to fight tooth and nail for their own National sovereignty.

(March 28, 2022 at 11:51 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: exactly what does a division being destroyed mean?   and how much of what is meant is true?   there have been a lot of over the top propaganda claims about casualties inflicted, but my impression is ukrainian exaggeration and falsifications have been more egregious than Russian ones.

Depends on the organization.  It means alot less for a russion division than an american division.  It means that the majority of the trigger pullers or their vehicles are casualties.  So, say you lose your infantry - but still have your armor and supply. Your unit has been destroyed. Routed on the battlefield and forced to reorganize with other groups which are likely to have suffered the same loss. Say you have your infantry, but you've lost 1/2 or more of your armor? Same thing. Still have your armor and your infantry, lost supply? You haven't been routed..yet, but you've been defeated in detail and almost certainly will be..presently.

Your impression would be wrong.  Incompetence, grift, and an organizational structure designed for small defensive units is the 1-2-3 here. On the other end, ukraine is using tactics and weapons informed by our misadventures in the middle east these past few decades. Essentially, there was no way that the russian forces could have had a credible plan in the case that an advance failed (assuming they had one for winning, to begin with), and ukraine is only doing those things which might lead to an advance failing. It'll be harder going getting the russians out of ukraine than it was to stop them from getting in. A lesson learned too late for ukraine - but on full display for every other nation of the world, now taking notes.

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-as an addendum, about lessons learned too late. I'm sure that someone will remind me that ukraines military was in shambles, itself, a few years back - so what could they have done? Turns out, russia is so bad at this the locals can manage the defense. Would have been true then as well. The audacity of the plan with regards to the little green men caught the world flat footed...but...it seems now like there was a reason that this was russia's first step in the invasion. It's what they could pull off - realistically. I've been calling the chickens my little green men for a bit since realizing this. They're already grazing disputed pastures..have been for years, no one said anything.