(April 27, 2022 at 3:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(April 27, 2022 at 2:04 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: You didn't answer the question though. What if he runs again? Why do you let him run the 1st time but not the next time? What is the difference between the two situations? Him grabbing the cops weapon at home could result in his children, if he has any, being shot by the cops by accidental crossfire. You try to pick him up at work and he fights the cops there, you are putting his co-workers in danger. Why is that any better of a situation?

The difference is that he'd be in a familiar environment - people DO react differently in different situations.  Remember - in the interaction that cost him his life, he was on the street and clearly didn't understand what was going on. What follows is a not unlikely scenario:

Two cops go to his home and explain why they're there. They tell him that a number plate violation isn't terribly serious, but that he'll need to come along with them sort out the resisting thing. Understanding that he's not in a serious amount of trouble, he goes along quietly. His court appointed lawyer meets with him at the jail and explains his options. At his arraignment the next day, the court sets a modest bail and Mr. Lyoya is released pending a preliminary hearing.

See? Justice is served - Mr. Lyoya is now in the justice system and is going to have to accept whatever penalty society demands for the heinous crimes of 1) having a bad number plate and 2) being afraid of cops. The chief difference between what did happen and what could have happened, is that - in my scenario - Mr. Lyoya's two children still have their father.

Boru

Hopefully assuming that he doesn’t have PTSD from his time in the Congo. Looking up the human rights situation there, it’s honestly even worse than I would have thought. It’s the sort of place where not only do cops and the military act with complete impunity, they actually commit a majority of the unlawful homocides in the country, often for things like refusing to let them rape or rob you. Imagine if BLM's rhetoric about the police being a racist terror squad was, if anything, an understatement (though maybe not the racist part since they seem to do this to people regardless of ethnicity), and you start to get an idea of how bad it is.

Hell, imagine a version of the Dylann Roof shooting where instead of a Neo-Nazi teen that the police may be treating with kid gloves, it’s the local military doing it with impunity. That happened in 2006, had a higher body count, didn't even have any apparent rationale, and it's not even all that much of an outlier for them. 

I can’t be 100% convinced that it would have gone down as well as you suggested when that’s the sort of image he has of police (which is very likely, given how bad the situation he fled was), but at least it’s better than what actually ended up happening.

You don't need to be from the congo to worry that the cops might be bad guys. You can be from (checks notes) Grand Rapids.

(April 27, 2022 at 3:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(April 27, 2022 at 2:04 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: You didn't answer the question though. What if he runs again? Why do you let him run the 1st time but not the next time? What is the difference between the two situations? Him grabbing the cops weapon at home could result in his children, if he has any, being shot by the cops by accidental crossfire. You try to pick him up at work and he fights the cops there, you are putting his co-workers in danger. Why is that any better of a situation?

The difference is that he'd be in a familiar environment - people DO react differently in different situations.  Remember - in the interaction that cost him his life, he was on the street and clearly didn't understand what was going on. What follows is a not unlikely scenario:

Two cops go to his home and explain why they're there. They tell him that a number plate violation isn't terribly serious, but that he'll need to come along with them sort out the resisting thing. Understanding that he's not in a serious amount of trouble, he goes along quietly. His court appointed lawyer meets with him at the jail and explains his options. At his arraignment the next day, the court sets a modest bail and Mr. Lyoya is released pending a preliminary hearing.

See? Justice is served - Mr. Lyoya is now in the justice system and is going to have to accept whatever penalty society demands for the heinous crimes of 1) having a bad number plate and 2) being afraid of cops. The chief difference between what did happen and what could have happened, is that - in my scenario - Mr. Lyoya's two children still have their father.

Boru

Or you have another Brianna Taylor situation. Your guess is as good as mine.

He didn't understand what was going on? Sounds to me like you are being pretty disrespectful to this man and his intelligence by assuming that. He's not a mentally challenged child, and he confirmed that he could speak English. And I'm pretty sure he knew that he was in the US and was not still in the Congo with Congolese police, unless he was having a PTSD episode. I think he would have known the difference between the two. It's easy to do what you're doing and armchair quarterback in hindsight. It's ridiculous to say in hindsight that in the short time the policeman had to react, that he should have reminded himself that this guy is African so therefore he's justified in being scared enough to wrestle me for my weapon and therefore I should let him run away because I'm sure he'll comply next time at his home or work if I just ask him nicer next time.

I don't think you're meaning to be prejudiced with your post, but I do think you're being disrespectful to African immigrants in general. These are some of the brightest people in the US/West and they know what's up.

You're allowed to run from the police. That's all fine and dandy and I guess even understandable since no one wants to be locked in a box, and the feeling of oncoming claustrophobia can cause you to instinctively bolt. Taking the police officers' taser is a whole different matter, however. The mistake the officer made in this case is allowing the man to take his taser/making it too easy. If he didn't make that dumb mistake, the man would still likely be alive. I don't believe hardly anyone is actually afraid of being shot by the police. I don't buy that narrative. People run because they don't want to be locked in a box and lose their freedom. It generally has nothing whatsoever to do with worrying about getting shot.

Another great example. Isn't it stunning that police all over the world, and even in the us, can elect not to chase a fleeing suspect. That they can apprehend them later, at their homes...and sometimes, but not so much in the us... without killing anyone in their beds.

Somewhere, in some alternate universe, the cops are public servants. They're worried about being fired by their boss. Not empowered to fire on their boss. In that alternate universe..no one thinks to cover for authoritarian shitheels in a race war.

I'd like to see the statistics on whether it is safer to the suspect, police, and community to just let fleeing suspects go (provided they can be identified).

Would it result in fewer problems, or more problems? They still have to apprehend the suspect, and what will he/she do in the meantime?

I wonder how a police chief even reacts to an officer that says "he looked scared and combative, so I just let him go". Would he get written up for being lazy and leaving the real work to other cops, or commended for not escalating a situation?

(April 28, 2022 at 7:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You don't need to be from the congo to worry that the cops might be bad guys.  You can be from (checks notes) Grand Rapids.

Just saying, they’re even worse there than they are here. If my information is accurate, they make this waste of jissom look like Joe Fucking Friday.

(April 28, 2022 at 10:55 am)Irreligious Atheist Wrote:

(April 27, 2022 at 3:12 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: The difference is that he'd be in a familiar environment - people DO react differently in different situations.  Remember - in the interaction that cost him his life, he was on the street and clearly didn't understand what was going on. What follows is a not unlikely scenario:

Two cops go to his home and explain why they're there. They tell him that a number plate violation isn't terribly serious, but that he'll need to come along with them sort out the resisting thing. Understanding that he's not in a serious amount of trouble, he goes along quietly. His court appointed lawyer meets with him at the jail and explains his options. At his arraignment the next day, the court sets a modest bail and Mr. Lyoya is released pending a preliminary hearing.

See? Justice is served - Mr. Lyoya is now in the justice system and is going to have to accept whatever penalty society demands for the heinous crimes of 1) having a bad number plate and 2) being afraid of cops. The chief difference between what did happen and what could have happened, is that - in my scenario - Mr. Lyoya's two children still have their father.

Boru

Or you have another Brianna Taylor situation. Your guess is as good as mine.

He didn't understand what was going on? Sounds to me like you are being pretty disrespectful to this man and his intelligence by assuming that. He's not a mentally challenged child, and he confirmed that he could speak English. And I'm pretty sure he knew that he was in the US and was not still in the Congo with Congolese police, unless he was having a PTSD episode.

Intellectually, he might have known that American cops are less bad than Congolese cops, but as someone who deals with anxiety, trauma, and depression, even if you know for a fact that these particular examples are less dangerous than the ones who abused you, it can be hard to shake the association.

If you’re (for example) a woman whose formative years were fraught with abusive men, maybe even to the point where you didn’t even meet one who wasn’t overall negative to you until you were in your teens, and you somehow manage to get a husband/boyfriend/whatever who proves to be the exact opposite of that, it’s not like the fear that he’ll turn out to be just like all the rest of them just goes away.

(April 28, 2022 at 12:04 pm)HappySkeptic Wrote: I'd like to see the statistics on whether it is safer to the suspect, police, and community to just let fleeing suspects go (provided they can be identified).

Would it result in fewer problems, or more problems?  They still have to apprehend the suspect, and what will he/she do in the meantime?

I wonder how a police chief even reacts to an officer that says "he looked scared and combative, so I just let him go".  Would he get written up for being lazy and leaving the real work to other cops, or commended for not escalating a situation?

You can find them, at least insomuch as it's ever behooved the police to release them.  That's why they don't chase racers anymore. It's demonstrably safer not to. The usual "you're just gonna let the lawbreaking criminals go?" thing flared up and died down, and now, there are people driving cars who wouldn't realize that cops ever did chase. Oddly enough, western civilization has not collapsed, and the roads are still usable.

Broadly speaking...very broadly speaking, it's not really in question whether changes to the policing model the us uses would be safer for members of the community. We know that to be the case and can demonstrate it to be the case by reference to any number of other countries with different models. The real question..is whether any of those models allow for the police to act in the capacity they do here in the us, as a paramilitary force of occupation. How are you supposed to aid in strikebreaking, disenfranchisement, and the suppression of protest if you can't shoot a motherfucker for looking at you funny...?

Quote:Or you have another Brianna Taylor situation. Your guess is as good as mine.

He didn't understand what was going on? Sounds to me like you are being pretty disrespectful to this man and his intelligence by assuming that. He's not a mentally challenged child, and he confirmed that he could speak English. And I'm pretty sure he knew that he was in the US and was not still in the Congo with Congolese police, unless he was having a PTSD episode.

PTSD has nothing to do with intelligence or the ability to speak English nor does having a bad impression of police make you unintelligent and we have reason to think Buro idea wouldn't lead to a better outcome as this is totally freaking different from  Brianna Taylor. Your desperation to defend the cop for gunning someone down over a license plate is truly disturbing.

Aggravated license plate crimes. If we don't stop them..how many children will die?