(September 7, 2022 at 2:51 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 5, 2022 at 7:10 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: lol obviously Russia was going to lie about the imminent invasion. Anyone in his position would, no? That's just smart.

That rather undercuts any trust required to sign and execute a treaty, don' you think? Again, in diplomacy, credibility is everything -- and Putin, whatever else he has done, has squandered Russia's credibility, by this very point.

No, it doesn't. Being smart does not squander credibility. It's the invasion itself that caused the hit to Russia's credibility, not lying about it beforehand Like that other poster pointed out, Russia would have at least some incentive to keep to the deal, or else they know the West is just going to go right back to interfering and giving Ukraine billions in weapons to defend themselves.

Quote:No, it doesn't. Being smart does not squander credibility. It's the invasion itself that caused the hit to Russia's credibility, not lying about it beforehand Like that other poster pointed out, Russia would have at least some incentive to keep to the deal, or else they know the West is just going to go right back to interfering and giving Ukraine billions in weapons to defend themselves.

Nope lying in the first place shoots any credibility Vlad had. No peace deal with him can be trusted and no they have zero incentive to keep his word whether we go back to sending Ukraine weapons or not. Peace for Vlad is an excuse to plan the next invasion. He needs to be crushed now while we have the chance.

Quote:We are "aiding" people by using them as cannon fodder to advance our own goals. Like I posted before, if the goal is to weaken Russia at any cost of human life to the Ukrainians, then you can make a solid and logical case for doing that, but I believe that is a neo-con argument. I just disagree with the "at any human cost" part, and I think it's especially easy for us to act like we should be the ones that get the final say in Ukraine making a peace deal, because we're not the ones dying in the war and dealing with this on a daily basis.

Nope, we're helping a country retain its sovereignty against an invasion, and stopping Ukraine from making a bad deal is the right thing to do. This isn't a subject of disagreement you are simply wrong in every way.

Quote:And as far as the people going on about me being Canadian, there have been several posters who have told me to leave and go post on a Canadian forum, so that's what first made me get Trumpian vibes from some people and the "go back to your country" vibe. I'm aware there aren't many Trump or George Bush Jr fans on here, which is why it just strikes me as odd when people are using their arguments (not directed at you).

You clearly didn't get his comment 

Quote:I would not frown upon other nations not intervening if Canada was invaded, because messing with the US army is probably not a good idea on their part and I would not recommend it. Helping us with food or medical supplies? Sure. That's awesome.

Lol, yet you object when other countries do that with Ukraine .......

IA can spew the same tired talking points over and over. It doesn't change the fact you are wrong. And historians will look back and say thank god we didn't listen to people like you.

(September 9, 2022 at 11:52 pm)Helios Wrote:

Quote:We are "aiding" people by using them as cannon fodder to advance our own goals. Like I posted before, if the goal is to weaken Russia at any cost of human life to the Ukrainians, then you can make a solid and logical case for doing that, but I believe that is a neo-con argument. I just disagree with the "at any human cost" part, and I think it's especially easy for us to act like we should be the ones that get the final say in Ukraine making a peace deal, because we're not the ones dying in the war and dealing with this on a daily basis.

Nope, we're helping a country retain its sovereignty against an invasion, and stopping Ukraine from making a bad deal is the right thing to do. This isn't a subject of disagreement you are simply wrong in every way.

Quote:And as far as the people going on about me being Canadian, there have been several posters who have told me to leave and go post on a Canadian forum, so that's what first made me get Trumpian vibes from some people and the "go back to your country" vibe. I'm aware there aren't many Trump or George Bush Jr fans on here, which is why it just strikes me as odd when people are using their arguments (not directed at you).

You clearly didn't get his comment 

Quote:I would not frown upon other nations not intervening if Canada was invaded, because messing with the US army is probably not a good idea on their part and I would not recommend it. Helping us with food or medical supplies? Sure. That's awesome.

Lol, yet you object when other countries do that with Ukraine .......

When did I object to helping Ukraine with food or medical supplies? I objected to telling Ukraine that their peace deal was not acceptable to us, and giving them billions in weapons to keep the proxy war against Russia marching on. And I objected to the West and Ukraine flirting with the NATO membership idea because the West escalating tensions like that only helped bring shit like this to fruition.

Quote:When did I object to helping Ukraine with food or medical supplies? I objected to telling Ukraine that their peace deal was not acceptable to us, and giving them billions in weapons to keep the proxy war against Russia marching on. And I objected to the West and Ukraine flirting with the NATO membership idea because the West escalating tensions like that only helped bring shit like this to fruition.

1. Food medical supplies or weapons are both supplies so it's rather inconsistent.

2. Because it was a bad deal and we have ever a reason to object to it. Vlad can't be trusted period.

3. Ukraine can join whoever it wants and if Russia doesn't like that tough shit. They are the only ones who rose tensions when they invaded another country 

4. This isn't a proxy war and giving them those weapons so they can fight back is total just.

Congrats you have nothing with a great many words 

I.A.'s posts are not just pro-Putin but also pro-pedophilia because Russians have already kidnapped a quarter of a million children. And we know that Russia is one of the worst sex trafficking countries in the world. We know that Epstein had a lot of Russian connections, along with his good friend, Trump. It is terrifying what is happening to the quarter of a million children that have been forced into Russia.

It is time to stand up to Russia's war strategy which is just Neanderthal caveman club over-the-head war crimes. All that Russia's military know is war crimes. We saw this in Chechnya when they leveled Chechnya. We saw this in Syria. We're seeing it now in Ukraine. They just do war crimes and genocide and systemic rape, and the only ones who can defend them are pedo creeps.

Russia is losing the war. All of that money that American taxpayers and taxpayers in democratic nations around the world are sending to Ukraine, that money is going to keep Ukraine going as a country.

(September 9, 2022 at 10:48 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: No, it doesn't. Being smart does not squander credibility. It's the invasion itself that caused the hit to Russia's credibility, not lying about it beforehand.

Nowhere in this sad tale has Putin been "smart". The invasion caused a hit to Russian credibility because it was a big misjudgement, but the fact that they lied about their intentions does indeed impugn their creidibility, your vacuous protestations aside.

 

(September 9, 2022 at 10:48 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: Like that other poster pointed out, Russia would have at least some incentive to keep to the deal, or else they know the West is just going to go right back to interfering and giving Ukraine billions in weapons to defend themselves.

That's a very optimistic assessment, given Russia's history under Putin of not abiding by its agreements.

(September 9, 2022 at 10:42 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: We are "aiding" people by using them as cannon fodder to advance our own goals. Like I posted before, if the goal is to weaken Russia at any cost of human life to the Ukrainians, then you can make a solid and logical case for doing that, but I believe that is a neo-con argument. I just disagree with the "at any human cost" part, and I think it's especially easy for us to act like we should be the ones that get the final say in Ukraine making a peace deal, because we're not the ones dying in the war and dealing with this on a daily basis.

Whose post are you replying to? I have never written anything like "at any human cost". You really need to stop mischaracterizing what I'm writing. What we have here in Ukraine is an overlap of interests. You stripping the Ukrainians of their agency is a you problem. They chose to fight it out long before you chose to misinterpret matters.

(September 9, 2022 at 10:42 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: And as far as the people going on about me being Canadian, there have been several posters who have told me to leave and go post on a Canadian forum, so that's what first made me get Trumpian vibes from some people and the "go back to your country" vibe. I'm aware there aren't many Trump or George Bush Jr fans on here, which is why it just strikes me as odd when people are using their arguments (not directed at you).

Yeah, well that's got nothing to do with me.

(September 9, 2022 at 10:42 pm)Irreligious Atheist Wrote: I would not frown upon other nations not intervening if Canada was invaded, because messing with the US army is probably not a good idea on their part and I would not recommend it. Helping us with food or medical supplies? Sure. That's awesome.

Way to avoid the point.

I think that pretty much wraps up our interaction on this topic, have a good day.

(September 9, 2022 at 11:47 pm)Helios Wrote: Nope lying in the first place shoots any credibility Vlad had. No peace deal with him can be trusted and no they have zero incentive to keep his word whether we go back to sending Ukraine weapons or not. Peace for Vlad is an excuse to plan the next invasion. He needs to be crushed now while we have the chance.

This entire invasion is a violation of the Budapest Accords. Trusting someone who tears up an agreement they're signatory to is folly. Signing another agreement would be idiocy in the absence of a decisive Russian defeat. Hopefully that's what is underway as we write:

Quote:KYIV/HRAKOVE, Ukraine, Sept 10 (Reuters) - Ukrainian officials shared photos on Saturday showing troops raising the nation's flag over the main railway city that has supplied Russian forces in northeastern Ukraine, as a collapse in Russia's frontline threatened to turn into a rout.

A Reuters journalist inside a vast area recaptured in recent days by the advancing Ukrainian forces saw Ukrainian police patrolling towns and boxes of ammunition lying in heaps at positions abandoned by fleeing Russian soldiers.

With Ukrainians now having reached the city of Kupiansk, where rail lines linking Russia to eastern Ukraine converge, the advance had penetrated all the way to Moscow's main logistics route, potentially trapping thousands of Russian troops.

[...]

The capture of at least part of Kupiansk, if confirmed, potentially leaves thousands of Russian soldiers trapped at the frontline and cut off from supplies, including in Izium, Russia's main stronghold and logistics hub in the northeast.

Reuters could not independently verify the situation in either Kupiansk or Izium. Moscow has acknowledged that its frontline has buckled in Kharkiv but has said it is rushing extra troops to reinforce the area.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukr...022-09-10/

(September 10, 2022 at 3:18 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: I.A.'s posts are not just pro-Putin but also pro-pedophilia because Russians have already kidnapped a quarter of a million children. And we know that Russia is one of the worst sex trafficking countries in the world.  We know that Epstein had a  lot of  Russian connections, along with his good friend, Trump. It is terrifying what is happening to the quarter of a  million children that have been forced into Russia.

It is time to stand up to Russia's war strategy which is just  Neanderthal caveman club over-the-head war crimes.  All that  Russia's military know is war crimes.  We saw this in Chechnya when they leveled  Chechnya.  We saw this in  Syria.  We're seeing it now in  Ukraine.  They just do war crimes and genocide and systemic rape, and the only ones who can defend them are pedo creeps.

Russia is losing the war.  All of that money that American taxpayers and taxpayers in democratic nations around the world are sending to Ukraine,  that money is going to keep  Ukraine going as a country.

Good one. Very mature response here. I bet you supported the funding and arming of the so called 'rebels' in Syria by the West, who mostly were immediately handing over those West provided weapons to ISIS, and Al Qaeda, or linked groups. And those groups we were flooding weapons to were taking on child brides as they went along in the fight. I was called an Assad/ Putin puppet for not being ok with flooding weapons to ISIS though. Did you get the pedophile thing from my post about Mr. Girl? He's not a pedophile. He simply got aroused watching Cuties. Pedophilia is the primary attraction to children under 10. I do not suffer from this, nor does Mr. Girl. I am a map ally, and it's called being humane, which is something you wouldn't understand, and I simply want people not to be scared away from getting help, and once in prison, no one deserves torturous treatment.

When did I defend Russia as in saying that Russia is good?