(December 6, 2022 at 1:30 pm)Lek Wrote:

(December 6, 2022 at 1:28 pm)Ahriman Wrote: They're not specific to females, the other dude is bullshitting.

What is the difference between male and female genders then?

Too obvious to post, not worth explaining.

(December 6, 2022 at 1:34 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(December 6, 2022 at 1:30 pm)Lek Wrote: What is the difference between male and female genders then?

Too obvious to post, not worth explaining.

I agree. It is very obvious.

You'd have to pick a specific culture and a point in time, lek. For example, your question from earlier, about long hair and shaving and dresses? That goes back and forth over time just in our own culture, and may or may not have anything to do with gender in some other at any time. You are, ofc, perfectly aware of the social phenomena of calling boys sissies and of calling girls butch for breaches of gender norms...but you may not be aware that the things you and your nutball friends consider gender breach are gender norms elsewhere, and not just with respect to how we present ourselves, but also our roles in life as envisioned by cultures other than our own.

To be a Real Boy, for example, you may need to have an immaculately groomed presentation wrapped in the finest of silk dresses, primarily engaged in child rearing. To be a Real Girl, you may have to have short cropped hair and utilitarian clothing, primarily engaged in agricultural labor. Some cultures prefer their Real Boys slight and their Real Girls stocky, and vv. On and on the list goes - which is why gender is not understood to be a biological phenomena, and that's why this "atheists abandon science" line of bullshit is untenable on it's own grounds..even as there are certainly plenty of examples where atheists don't give a shit what science has to say about a given thing.

You're not only wrong, your wrongness is built on other bits of wrong at every level of magnification - but stubborn wrongness is considered to be a Real Boys trait in our culture, so rock the fuck out.

(December 6, 2022 at 1:39 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You'd have to pick a specific culture and a point in time, lek. For example, your question from earlier, about long hair and shaving and dresses? That goes back and forth over time just in our own culture, and may or may not have anything to do with gender in some other at any time. You are, ofc, perfectly aware of the social phenomena of calling boys sissies and of calling girls butch for breaches of gender norms...but you may not be aware that the things you and your nutball friends consider gender breach are gender norms elsewhere, and not just with respect to how we present ourselves, but also our roles in life as envisioned by cultures other than our own.

To be a Real Boy, for example, you may need to have an immaculately groomed presentation wrapped in the finest of silk dresses, primarily engaged in child rearing. To be a Real Girl, you may have to have short cropped hair and utilitarian clothing, primarily engaged in agricultural labor. Some cultures prefer their Real Boys slight and their Real Girls stocky, and vv. On and on the list goes - which is why gender is not understood to be a biological phenomena, and that's why this "atheists abandon science" line of bullshit is untenable on it;s own grounds..even as there are certainly plenty of examples where atheists don;t give a shit what science has to say about a given thing.

You're not only wrong, your wrongness is built on other bits of wrong at every level of magnification - but stubborn wrongness is considered to be a Real Boys trait, so rock the fuck out.

You're blowing smoke. What I'm saying is that if you can have exactly the same traits and identify as either gender, then genders don't exist. Today, right now, what characteristics separate the genders?

(December 6, 2022 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote: Today, right now, what characteristics separate the genders?

A brain state called "identity". Can we move on now?

(December 6, 2022 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote: You're blowing smoke. What I'm saying is that if you can have exactly the same traits and identify as either gender, then genders don't exist. Today, right now, what characteristics separate the genders?

Many people think that there are no differences, but you are obsessed with trans people and you want to know what is it that they want. Let's just say that they want to feel and look a certain way and that doctors are prepared to allow them because it does not harm anyone else and it makes them happy.

(December 6, 2022 at 2:10 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(December 6, 2022 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote: You're blowing smoke. What I'm saying is that if you can have exactly the same traits and identify as either gender, then genders don't exist. Today, right now, what characteristics separate the genders?

Many people think that there are no differences, but you are obsessed with trans people and you want to know what is it that they want. Let's just say that they want to feel and look a certain way and that doctors are prepared to allow them because it does not harm anyone else and it makes them happy.

Lol......does it really?

(December 6, 2022 at 1:48 pm)Lek Wrote:

(December 6, 2022 at 1:39 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You'd have to pick a specific culture and a point in time, lek.  For example, your question from earlier, about long hair and shaving and dresses?  That goes back and forth over time just in our own culture, and may or may not have anything to do with gender in some other at any time.  You are, ofc, perfectly aware of the social phenomena of calling boys sissies and of calling girls butch for breaches of gender norms...but you may not be aware that the things you and your nutball friends consider gender breach are gender norms elsewhere, and not just with respect to how we present ourselves, but also our roles in life as envisioned by cultures other than our own.

To be a Real Boy, for example, you may need to have an immaculately groomed presentation wrapped in the finest of silk dresses, primarily engaged in child rearing.  To be a Real Girl, you may have to have short cropped hair and utilitarian clothing, primarily engaged in agricultural labor.  Some cultures prefer their Real Boys slight and their Real Girls stocky, and vv.  On and on the list goes - which is why gender is not understood to be a biological phenomena, and that's why this "atheists abandon science" line of bullshit is untenable on it;s own grounds..even as there are certainly plenty of examples where atheists don;t give a shit what science has to say about a given thing.

You're not only wrong, your wrongness is built on other bits of wrong at every level of magnification - but stubborn wrongness is considered to be a Real Boys trait, so rock the fuck out.

You're blowing smoke. What I'm saying is that if you can have exactly the same traits and identify as either gender, then genders don't exist. Today, right now, what characteristics separate the genders?

Sure they do, Lek, in the same way that any social construct exists - but one does have to wonder..if you're willing to posit that genders simply do not exist..why all the hand wringing over gender norms and gender breaches?

Asking the same wrong question again doesn't change the fact that it's been answered at length. Identity is subjective - it's not limited to the relative assertions of gender, or the objective determination of sex. A person can feel like a girl, despite being apprehended by society as boyish, and conveniently possess a vagina - or not, and any combination in between. This isn't difficult, nor is it in any way contradictory to the position of Science™ on the matter. You don't even have to know any of the Science™ to realize it. I'm willing to bet everything I own on you having had some sort of feelings about this over the course of your life. That you've realized there are some disparities between how you feel, what society expects, and what you are.

You're apparently having some right now.....

(December 6, 2022 at 2:19 pm)Ahriman Wrote:

(December 6, 2022 at 2:10 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote: Many people think that there are no differences, but you are obsessed with trans people and you want to know what is it that they want. Let's just say that they want to feel and look a certain way and that doctors are prepared to allow them because it does not harm anyone else and it makes them happy.

Lol......does it really?

It does. What makes then unhappy is people who seem to think that someone else being trans is somehow THEIR business.

Boru

(December 6, 2022 at 2:30 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(December 6, 2022 at 2:19 pm)Ahriman Wrote: Lol......does it really?

It does. What makes then unhappy is people who seem to think that someone else being trans is somehow THEIR business.

Boru

It can be anyone's business. I don't have a problem with trans people.