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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm
(February 19, 2023 at 3:44 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (February 18, 2023 at 9:08 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: According to the story, the authorities didn’t know what Jesus looked like (hence the literary device of a betrayer). Jesus had to be betrayed to make the myth work. If it hadn’t been Judas, there would have been some other pre-ordained rat.
I'm not sure I follow. What is the relationship between the authorities not knowing what he looked like, and Jesus needing to be betrayed to make the myth work?
How would the authorities, who didn’t know what Jesus looked like, have been able to arrest him without the services of a betrayer? Jesus, knowing he’d be killed, could not have turned himself in. That would be tantamount to suicide.
For the Redeemer myth to work, Jesus had to be killed through the agency of others. If his death was all the was required, he could have simply taken poison or thrown himself under a passing ox cart.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 19, 2023 at 6:12 pm
(February 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: How would the authorities, who didn’t know what Jesus looked like, have been able to arrest him without the services of a betrayer?
Right, they hired an informant in this situation, but notice that there was already a plot to kill Jesus. My claim is that this would have taken place by any means available, and betrayal wasn't necessary for it to occur.
He may have just been stoned in the street at the hand of the priests. I agree the story seems to require a sacrificial element (the lamb analogy), therefore suicide and senescence seem unlikely options.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 19, 2023 at 7:11 pm
(This post was last modified: February 19, 2023 at 7:11 pm by arewethereyet.)
The betrayal is an important piece of the story. Judas sold Jesus out, then tried to give the money back, then hanged himself when he realized he had been used...not but the assassins but by Jesus/God himself as a pawn in the plan.
Seems to me to be, in part, a story pointing out the importance of remaining faithful.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 4:15 am
Exact same purpose as it's ot analogs, yup.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 4:45 am
(February 19, 2023 at 7:11 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: The betrayal is an important piece of the story. Judas sold Jesus out, then tried to give the money back, then hanged himself when he realized he had been used...not but the assassins but by Jesus/God himself as a pawn in the plan.
Seems to me to be, in part, a story pointing out the importance of remaining faithful.
I think it also reflects the importance of background checks on prospective employees.
Boru
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 5:26 am
Honestly, the whole thing in the Last Supper where Jesus outright states that Judas is going to betray him and tells him to do what he has to do (John 13:27) only makes sense to me if Jesus sanctioned the betrayal in the first place. Especially given that A) Jesus' resultant crucifixion was meant to be the endgame of the whole fucking ministry of Jesus, and B) Judas was so troubled by what he had to do that he killed himself.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 11:14 am
(This post was last modified: February 20, 2023 at 11:15 am by John 6IX Breezy.)
(February 20, 2023 at 5:26 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Honestly, the whole thing in the Last Supper where Jesus outright states that Judas is going to betray him and tells him to do what he has to do (John 13:27) only makes sense to me if Jesus sanctioned the betrayal in the first place.
Here is a quote I found from one of the old writings in my church. It interprets Judas' inclusion in the Passover, even statements that Jesus' knew about the betrayal, as attempts at redeeming Judas from that path.
"Even after he had twice pledged himself to betray the Saviour, there was opportunity for repentance. At the Passover supper Jesus proved His divinity by revealing the traitor's purpose. He tenderly included Judas in the ministry to the disciples. But the last appeal of love was unheeded. Then the case of Judas was decided, and the feet that Jesus had washed went forth to the betrayer's work."
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 12:20 pm
If only Judas had known that the prophecies of Jesus were contingent, he could have just changed his mind.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 1:04 pm
(February 19, 2023 at 6:12 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (February 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: How would the authorities, who didn’t know what Jesus looked like, have been able to arrest him without the services of a betrayer?
Right, they hired an informant in this situation, but notice that there was already a plot to kill Jesus. My claim is that this would have taken place by any means available, and betrayal wasn't necessary for it to occur.
He may have just been stoned in the street at the hand of the priests. I agree the story seems to require a sacrificial element (the lamb analogy), therefore suicide and senescence seem unlikely options.
It is unlikely in the extreme that the Sanhedrin would have stone Jesus in the street. For one thing, Jesus hadn’t committed any of the offenses under Mosaic Law that would merit death. For another, capital punishment was virtually non-existent for any offense in Jewish society of that period. For still another, it beggars belief to think that a majority of the rabbis would have voted to kill someone they considered mentally deranged.
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RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
February 20, 2023 at 5:37 pm
I find this debate humorous.
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