(March 3, 2023 at 9:21 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: The very idea of democracy is based on the idea that at some point, even the most ordinary man will understand what’s going on. 

Quote:And if he/she doesn’t. Well I think you are right then, Than China should be our vision of a most efficiently governed society. 

Quote:But I think you are not right. I think that even with the most advanced propaganda or alternate-reality creating method, there are some limits. I even think that a country like Russia is already way beyond these limits.

(March 3, 2023 at 11:12 am)HappySkeptic Wrote:

(March 3, 2023 at 9:27 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: This could turn out to be some sort of childish military order by Vlad himself.
 
If you just think about the stupidity: You already had the Germans on Board and kept financing the rebuilding of your nation with all that cash. It’s not like Russians were in need of land of any type. But the man decided to bring justice to the corrupted western dominions. Good luck with that. 

Despite Bel's belief that the sabotage was by the U.S., my bet is on Germany or Russia.  One of them clandestinely did what they didn't want to do publicly.

(March 3, 2023 at 3:37 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Germany's entire industrial model was based on cheap russian gas.  They can recover the feedstock elsewhere, but it would take years.  The IMF took a look at this and the solution they came up with was really straightforward.  Remove protections on german households so that they could "share" in the economic devastation otherwise limited to german firms.

GL with that shit.

So Technically Russia has helped Europeans by showing them that reliance on fossil fuels is dangerous even if there was no climate emergency. But as I said this will not be the only change that will happen in the coming years. I believe that agriculture will start shifting to more eco-friendly means of production too. If we can push our governments in that direction, I think the result will be a better economy in general (but that’s my point of view).

(March 3, 2023 at 8:23 pm)Belacqua Wrote:

(March 3, 2023 at 9:21 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: The very idea of democracy is based on the idea that at some point, even the most ordinary man will understand what’s going on. 

I don't think the definition of democracy is that ordinary people know what's going on. A lot of people know what's going on now, but it doesn't help. Democracy is where the people vote for representatives who enact the will of the people. That isn't happening in the US. 

It's fully possible for lots and lots of people to know what's going on even in an oligarchy like the US. 

Quote:And if he/she doesn’t. Well I think you are right then, Than China should be our vision of a most efficiently governed society. 

Why do you think that people in China don't know what's going on? Have you spoken to a lot of Chinese people? 

They vote for their local representatives, the local representatives have responsibilities. If you look at the enormous improvement in living standards in China, it is clear that the Chinese government is working to improve people's lives. As opposed to the US government, which is allowing a steep decline in infrastructure, life expectancy, and other indicators of quality of life. 

China is way out ahead in many sectors of high-tech industry. Tim Cook says he has factories in China not because the costs are lower (they're a lot lower in other Asian countries) but because the quality of work is so high. 

There are of course points on which the Chinese government should be criticized. The trouble is that Anglophone media not only emphasizes these points to the exclusion of all good things, but also invents other evils out of whole cloth. 

Poor people have fared much better in China than in the US in recent years. 

Quote:But I think you are not right. I think that even with the most advanced propaganda or alternate-reality creating method, there are some limits. I even think that a country like Russia is already way beyond these limits.

And I think that Americans are more deeply sunk into alternate-reality land than just about anybody else. Are there limits to this? 

It will be interesting to see what happens when Ukraine crumbles and the US loses interest. There's a very good chance that Russia will get what it wants, more or less, and at that point Ukraine will fall so far off of the US media's radar screen that it will be like it never existed. Remember the war in Afghanistan that was necessary for peace and democracy in the world? The US lost it to the Taliban and now it's dropped completely out of media discourse. How often do you read about Yemen? The US is supporting an evil war against Yemenis, and although they also provide food aid, it is a fraction of the military aid they give to Ukraine. Apartheid in Israel continues to increase, but no one in the US government dares to mention this. 

As Russia/China/Iran/India and the other BRICS nations replace the dollar as the reserve currency, and America continues its decline at home, there will no doubt be a serious increase in advanced propaganda to persuade Americans that the US is still #1 and that bombing other countries = peace. 

Are you aware that during Obama's term in office, he averaged one bomb dropped every eight minutes for the full eight years. We're number one.

Your mistake is this: It’s good to be critical of your government. But you are supposed to push it forward. I don’t really believe that you would like to see your country go back to what it was before 1776. I don’t believe you sincerely want that.

3) Don’t get me wrong. No one is saying that any country is perfect. Just look at France and their war on Algeria in the 60's or at the French-English military intervention against Egypt under Nasser in 1956. That’s just history. The question is where you want to stand during this lowing of history. I am not even saying you have to pick a side. I am only saying that if you are picking a side you have to see clearly what side it is you have decided to be a part of.

(March 4, 2023 at 6:51 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(March 3, 2023 at 8:23 pm)Belacqua Wrote: I don't think the definition of democracy is that ordinary people know what's going on. A lot of people know what's going on now, but it doesn't help. Democracy is where the people vote for representatives who enact the will of the people. That isn't happening in the US. 

It's fully possible for lots and lots of people to know what's going on even in an oligarchy like the US. 


Why do you think that people in China don't know what's going on? Have you spoken to a lot of Chinese people? 

They vote for their local representatives, the local representatives have responsibilities. If you look at the enormous improvement in living standards in China, it is clear that the Chinese government is working to improve people's lives. As opposed to the US government, which is allowing a steep decline in infrastructure, life expectancy, and other indicators of quality of life. 

China is way out ahead in many sectors of high-tech industry. Tim Cook says he has factories in China not because the costs are lower (they're a lot lower in other Asian countries) but because the quality of work is so high. 

There are of course points on which the Chinese government should be criticized. The trouble is that Anglophone media not only emphasizes these points to the exclusion of all good things, but also invents other evils out of whole cloth. 

Poor people have fared much better in China than in the US in recent years. 


And I think that Americans are more deeply sunk into alternate-reality land than just about anybody else. Are there limits to this? 

It will be interesting to see what happens when Ukraine crumbles and the US loses interest. There's a very good chance that Russia will get what it wants, more or less, and at that point Ukraine will fall so far off of the US media's radar screen that it will be like it never existed. Remember the war in Afghanistan that was necessary for peace and democracy in the world? The US lost it to the Taliban and now it's dropped completely out of media discourse. How often do you read about Yemen? The US is supporting an evil war against Yemenis, and although they also provide food aid, it is a fraction of the military aid they give to Ukraine. Apartheid in Israel continues to increase, but no one in the US government dares to mention this. 

As Russia/China/Iran/India and the other BRICS nations replace the dollar as the reserve currency, and America continues its decline at home, there will no doubt be a serious increase in advanced propaganda to persuade Americans that the US is still #1 and that bombing other countries = peace. 

Are you aware that during Obama's term in office, he averaged one bomb dropped every eight minutes for the full eight years. We're number one.

1) Not the definition. I can quote Thomas Jefferson on that. I think you can read his book called “The Political Writings of Thomas Jefferson” https://www.amazon.com/Political-Writing...B00CNJRBWQ
 
Another must read is Rousseau’s “The social contract”
 
These are the Manifest and the “Capital” of republican ideology.
 
The philosophical approach is that man is an essentially good being that is capable of reasoning and that the ordinary (even uneducated man) is capable of making good decisions (even in a court trial) an deliver that to the rest of society.
 
2) Does that happen in Greece for instance?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiana...d_massacre
 
The organs of young protesters are said to have been used for the medical needs of senior party members.
 
Your mistake is this: It’s good to be critical of your government. But you are supposed to push it forward. I don’t really believe that you would like to see your country go back to what it was before 1776. I don’t believe you sincerely want that.
 
3) Don’t get me wrong. No one is saying that any country is perfect. Just look at France and their war on Algeria in the 60's or at the French-English military intervention against Egypt under Nasser in 1956. That’s just history. The question is where you want to stand during this lowing of history. I am not even saying you have to pick a side. I am only saying that if you are picking a side you have to see clearly what side it is you have decided to be a part of.

(March 4, 2023 at 7:02 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(March 4, 2023 at 6:51 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: 1) Not the definition. I can quote Thomas Jefferson on that. I think you can read his book called “The Political Writings of Thomas Jefferson” https://www.amazon.com/Political-Writing...B00CNJRBWQ
 
Another must read is Rousseau’s “The social contract”
 
These are the Manifest and the “Capital” of republican ideology.
 
The philosophical approach is that man is an essentially good being that is capable of reasoning and that the ordinary (even uneducated man) is capable of making good decisions (even in a court trial) an deliver that to the rest of society.
 
2) Does that happen in Greece for instance?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiana...d_massacre
 
The organs of young protesters are said to have been used for the medical needs of senior party members.
 
Your mistake is this: It’s good to be critical of your government. But you are supposed to push it forward. I don’t really believe that you would like to see your country go back to what it was before 1776. I don’t believe you sincerely want that.
 
3) Don’t get me wrong. No one is saying that any country is perfect. Just look at France and their war on Algeria in the 60's or at the French-English military intervention against Egypt under Nasser in 1956. That’s just history. The question is where you want to stand during this lowing of history. I am not even saying you have to pick a side. I am only saying that if you are picking a side you have to see clearly what side it is you have decided to be a part of.

Democracy is based on the notion that a million people are smarter than one person. That doesn’t sound right.

Autocracy is based on the notion that one person is smarter than a million people. That doesn’t sound right, either.

Boru

So as long as you are not an Old-Kingdom Egyptian who is lucky enough to be ruled by the beloved son and daughter of Horus, you have to stick with that as far a I see it.

(March 4, 2023 at 6:51 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: are said to have been

Quote:I am only saying that if you are picking a side you have to see clearly what side it is you have decided to be a part of.