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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 29, 2023 at 11:33 pm
(This post was last modified: April 29, 2023 at 11:34 pm by Belacqua.)
(April 29, 2023 at 11:01 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: social norms
People have been taking mass for quite a long time now. In their community, it's completely normal. It is, therefore, a social norm.
For people raised within that community, it is not insane or irrational to hold to that social norm.
You judge it to be opposed to some essential, basic part of human nature (an anthropological taboo), and therefore not sane. I am skeptical of that. Practicing behavior which is considered entirely normal by the community is not a sign of insanity, though from outside it might look that way.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 12:57 am
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2023 at 12:58 am by Fake Messiah.)
The thing is that religion has the ability to overcome common sense in people and make them act unreasonably.
Like the ritual that Hindus in India have where they roll a small child into a cow's dung because they believe that the goddess cow will give them a good life. Now, sanity in them tells them that they should stay away from shit because it is smelly, dirty, and probably contain diseases, but religion overrides that common sense and makes them behave insanely.
And there are plenty of other rituals in all other religions as well.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 3:35 am
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2023 at 3:40 am by Belacqua.)
(April 30, 2023 at 12:57 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Like the ritual that Hindus in India have where they roll a small child into a cow's dung because they believe that the goddess cow will give them a good life.
From my perspective, this is yucky and unwise. When I am Emperor of India I will try to persuade them to stop.
But the larger question remains:
If a person is raised in a society in which this is common, if his parents and grandparents did it, if all the respectable people he knows approve of it, then is he insane if he also approves of it?
From my perspective, it is shockingly stupid to keep guns in one's house -- unwise to an unbelievable degree. But a lot of Americans think it's a good idea. Are they all insane?
Given what we know about tobacco, is smoking it insane? Or just a bad idea?
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 4:14 am
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2023 at 4:20 am by Anomalocaris.)
(April 30, 2023 at 12:57 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: The thing is that religion has the ability to overcome common sense in people and make them act unreasonably.
Like the ritual that Hindus in India have where they roll a small child into a cow's dung because they believe that the goddess cow will give them a good life. Now, sanity in them tells them that they should stay away from shit because it is smelly, dirty, and probably contain diseases, but religion overrides that common sense and makes them behave insanely.
And there are plenty of other rituals in all other religions as well.
it is not merely that religion has that ability. religion was most valued for that very ability, developed specifically to provide ability, and nurtured continuously to further heighten that ability.
it is not an accidental poison. it is something developed specifically to be poisonous by assiduous trial and error plus considerable malevolent insight into human nature, and diligently nurtured to keep it at least one step ahead of any crowd immunity to its poison as those might develop.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 7:24 am
Fanatics are insane. They hurt themselves and others to go full speed towards Gods kingdom.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 8:49 am
(April 30, 2023 at 3:35 am)Belacqua Wrote: (April 30, 2023 at 12:57 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Like the ritual that Hindus in India have where they roll a small child into a cow's dung because they believe that the goddess cow will give them a good life.
From my perspective, this is yucky and unwise. When I am Emperor of India I will try to persuade them to stop.
But the larger question remains:
If a person is raised in a society in which this is common, if his parents and grandparents did it, if all the respectable people he knows approve of it, then is he insane if he also approves of it?
From my perspective, it is shockingly stupid to keep guns in one's house -- unwise to an unbelievable degree. But a lot of Americans think it's a good idea. Are they all insane?
Given what we know about tobacco, is smoking it insane? Or just a bad idea?
There's no larger question here. Yes, that's exactly the difference, and the only difference, between these religions and insanity. The difference between whether something is nuts or sunday service, clinically, is how normal it is in their community.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 9:06 am
Two things. Mental illness is generally reserved for describing mental processes over which the individual has little or no control. I don't think that fairly characterizes religious belief. The second is that this ignores our innate capacity for compartmentalization. So we can believe both things that are irrational and things that are rational at the same time without any harm to the person. Thus a person can believe they are going to heaven when they die, yet not act on that belief when deciding whether to cross in front of traffic or not. The idea that religion and the mind are one unified thing in the mind leads to erroneous conclusions about it.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 8:51 pm
(April 29, 2023 at 11:33 pm)Belacqua Wrote: (April 29, 2023 at 11:01 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: social norms
People have been taking mass for quite a long time now. In their community, it's completely normal. It is, therefore, a social norm.
For people raised within that community, it is not insane or irrational to hold to that social norm.
Yes. Thank you. That was my point. Clearly these individuals are entirely sane with the context of their community. Equally clearly, the community as a whole has a few Daddy Who Art In Heaven Issues. As a group they are engaged in an activity which, when stripped of its ritualistic trappings, is typically lumped in with rape and murder. If you found somebody who had come up with this all on their own you would be right to be deeply worried. That this is a group behaviour does not improve the situation to my thinking.
Quote:You judge it to be opposed to some essential, basic part of human nature (an anthropological taboo), and therefore not sane. I am skeptical of that.
It is eternally amusing to me how one-sided your scepticism is. Let's give it the sniff test. Imagine this headline popped up, " Authorities in Florida have revealed that a small pagan cult believes that they can magically transform milk and cookies into the blood and flesh of Ashera, which they then consume to be closer to her..." How loud do you think the outraged shrieking would be?
Quote:Practicing behavior which is considered entirely normal by the community is not a sign of insanity, though from outside it might look that way.
What a lovely description of some of the worst atrocities that our species has ever perpetrated.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 9:22 pm
(April 29, 2023 at 1:20 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: At what point does faith become insanity?
When we discuss religion we often hear "That doesn't count because these people don't represent religion X because they are crazy/ fundamentalists, they are not normal Xtians, etc.", but where is the dividing point or demarcation line that divides normal religious people from insane ones?
The demarcation point is where the current society determines it is. Don't think so, ask the greeks or romans, maybe Heavens Gate cult. I understand that there are a few left and they may have a new definition for asteroid.
(yeah, yeah, comet, don't ruin the joke)
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Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental.
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RE: At what point does faith become insanity?
April 30, 2023 at 10:24 pm
(This post was last modified: April 30, 2023 at 11:12 pm by Belacqua.)
(April 30, 2023 at 8:51 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: "Authorities in Florida have revealed that a small pagan cult believes that they can magically transform milk and cookies into the blood and flesh of Ashera, which they then consume to be closer to her..." How loud do you think the outraged shrieking would be?
I wouldn't be shrieking about it, because I don't much get worked up about things like that.
If they sincerely believe there is some transformation of matter going on, I think they're incorrect.
Social norms are largely a product of history. If that sect keeps up its crazy practices for 2000 years and converts billions, it would be a pretty normal social norm.
Quote:Quote:Practicing behavior which is considered entirely normal by the community is not a sign of insanity, though from outside it might look that way.
What a lovely description of some of the worst atrocities that our species has ever perpetrated.
What criteria do you use to rule that a practice considered entirely normal by a large community of people is in fact insane?
I can certainly understand saying that it's a BAD practice. That there are reasons to stop. I can construct arguments why lots of current and former social norms are in fact undesirable. But I don't think that's the same as insane.
Immoral or unwise practices are not necessarily mental illness.
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