(May 7, 2023 at 1:15 am)purplepurpose Wrote: USA wants Ukraine to host NATO Black sea fleet, not russian fleet.

You have a source for this claim? Basing NATO ships in Ukraine would be problematic in the sense that if NATO gets involved in a shooting war, Turkey could deny those warships passage. And even though Turkey is a member of NATO, given Erdogan's recent behavior, I'm not sure he'd approve all warship movements. And as @Helios points out, NATO already has Black Sea access through member nations.

(May 7, 2023 at 1:15 am)purplepurpose Wrote: What would USA do if russians wanted to build military ports in mexico and wanted to host their navy there? Cheer?

We'd probably use diplomatic and economic pressure to thwart that. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't kill, torture, and kidnap tens of thousands of Mexican civilians in an unjustified invasion.

(May 7, 2023 at 9:21 am)Helios Wrote:

(May 7, 2023 at 6:12 am)purplepurpose Wrote: I am not educated in geopolitics. But its obvious that its all about the money/influence. Why else USA has military bases all over the world? To hoard money and influence. Just like in medievel times, only now people pretend to be noble.

EDIT:

Here are the quotes of an educated man in geopolitics.

“The reality is that the American people have no desire for an empire. This is not to say that they don't want the benefits, both economic and strategic. It simply means that they don't want to pay the price. Economically, Americans want the growth potential of open markets but not the pains. Politically, they want to have an enormous influence, but not the resentment of the world. Military, they want to be protected from dangers but not to bear the burdens of long-term strategy.”

― George Friedman, 

Another quote:

There are three global realities that must be faced in the coming decade. First, the United States has become an empire, shaping and reshaping the world through its actions. Second, it is an unintended empire, which means that it neither recognizes the reality of empire nor is prepared to exercise that power prudently. Finally, the greatest challenge to that empire does not come from outside, but from the profound tension between empire and republic.

Well there are truths to these quotes Ukraine is a bit unique because I have pointed out there is nothing on a broad geopolitical scale America gains from Ukraine they don't already have and  if the goal is merely to screw over Russia they already can do that from territories they already have influence over.

USA use motivated ukranians to bleed russians. Bleed russians good.

(May 7, 2023 at 6:12 am)purplepurpose Wrote: I am not educated in geopolitics. But its obvious that its all about the money/influence. Why else USA has military bases all over the world? To hoard money and influence. Just like in medievel times, only now people pretend to be noble.

EDIT:

Here are the quotes of an educated man in geopolitics.

“The reality is that the American people have no desire for an empire. This is not to say that they don't want the benefits, both economic and strategic. It simply means that they don't want to pay the price. Economically, Americans want the growth potential of open markets but not the pains. Politically, they want to have an enormous influence, but not the resentment of the world. Military, they want to be protected from dangers but not to bear the burdens of long-term strategy.”
― 

Another quote:

Quote:There are three global realities that must be faced in the coming decade. First, the United States has become an empire, shaping and reshaping the world through its actions. Second, it is an unintended empire, which means that it neither recognizes the reality of empire nor is prepared to exercise that power prudently. Finally, the greatest challenge to that empire does not come from outside, but from the profound tension between empire and republic.

We can discuss American foreign policy until the cows come home ... but that still doesn't justify an invasion that has caused the deaths of tens of thousands of people.

Maybe you should start a thread to that effect.

(May 7, 2023 at 9:32 am)purplepurpose Wrote: USA use motivated ukranians to bleed russians. Bleed russians good.

The Russians could stop their bleeding with a simple decision.

Meanwhile the on-again/off-again relationship between the Russian MoD and Yevgenny Prigozhin and Wagner is on again, and we may be seeing preparation for the Ukrainian offensive:

Quote:KYIV, May 7 (Reuters) - Russia's Wagner mercenary group appeared on Sunday to ditch plans to withdraw from Bakhmut in eastern Ukraine, saying they had been promised more arms by Moscow and suggesting they may keep up their assault on what Russia sees as a stepping stone to other cities in the Donbas region.

Elsewhere, Ukrainian and Russian media reported explosions across Russian-occupied Crimea, and Russia's defence ministry said its air defences had detected and destroyed 22 Ukrainian drones over the Black Sea overnight.

Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin had said on Friday that his fighters, who have spearheaded a months-long assault on Bakhmut, would pull out after being starved of ammunition and suffering "useless and unjustified" losses as a result.

But in an audio message posted on his Telegram channel on Sunday, he said: "We have been promised as much ammunition and weapons as we need to continue further operations. We have been promised that everything needed to prevent the enemy from cutting us off (from supplies) will be deployed."

[...]

Baza, a Telegram channel with links to Russia's law enforcement agencies, reported that Ukraine sent a series of drones over the peninsula, with Russian air defence shooting down at least one over the port of Sevastopol.

Reuters was not able to independently verify the reports.

Strikes on Russian-held targets have intensified in the past two weeks, especially in Crimea. Ukraine, without confirming any role in those attacks, says destroying enemy infrastructure is preparation for a planned ground assault.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/rus...023-05-07/

(May 7, 2023 at 9:46 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(May 7, 2023 at 9:32 am)purplepurpose Wrote: USA use motivated ukranians to bleed russians. Bleed russians good.

The Russians could stop their bleeding with a simple decision.

"No one knows with certainty how many people have been killed and wounded in Iraq since the 2003 United States invasion. However, we know that between 280,771-315,190 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, the Iraqi military and police, and opposition forces from the time of the invasion through March 2023. The violent deaths of Iraqi civilians have occurred through aerial bombing, shelling, gunshots, suicide attacks, and fires started by bombing. Many civilians have also been injured".

I don't justify Russia. But don't tell me that USA and its allies are noble side that likes diplomacy. 

Gideon Rose from Foreign Affairs on The Colbert Report in 2014, bragging about the US "stealing Russia's girlfriend" Ukraine, and admitting it could provoke Putin.


https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertarianPart...e_colbert/ (LINK TO A VIDEO).

(May 7, 2023 at 10:08 am)purplepurpose Wrote: "No one knows with certainty how many people have been killed and wounded in Iraq since the 2003 United States invasion. However, we know that between 280,771-315,190 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, the Iraqi military and police, and opposition forces from the time of the invasion through March 2023. The violent deaths of Iraqi civilians have occurred through aerial bombing, shelling, gunshots, suicide attacks, and fires started by bombing. Many civilians have also been injured".

I don't justify Russia.

...wihle trying to minimize Russias role by applying false analogies.
Tell us: Who invaded whom? Who is "politically" the worst offender? Given you assume, like Clausewitz, war to be the "continuation of politics by other means".

(May 7, 2023 at 9:54 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Meanwhile the on-again/off-again relationship between the Russian MoD and Yevgenny Prigozhin and Wagner is on again, and we may be seeing preparation for the Ukrainian offensive:

Quote:KYIV, May 7 (Reuters) - Russia's Wagner mercenary group appeared on Sunday to ditch plans to withdraw from Bakhmut in eastern Ukraine, saying they had been promised more arms by Moscow and suggesting they may keep up their assault on what Russia sees as a stepping stone to other cities in the Donbas region.

Elsewhere, Ukrainian and Russian media reported explosions across Russian-occupied Crimea, and Russia's defence ministry said its air defences had detected and destroyed 22 Ukrainian drones over the Black Sea overnight.

Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin had said on Friday that his fighters, who have spearheaded a months-long assault on Bakhmut, would pull out after being starved of ammunition and suffering "useless and unjustified" losses as a result.

But in an audio message posted on his Telegram channel on Sunday, he said: "We have been promised as much ammunition and weapons as we need to continue further operations. We have been promised that everything needed to prevent the enemy from cutting us off (from supplies) will be deployed."

[...]

Baza, a Telegram channel with links to Russia's law enforcement agencies, reported that Ukraine sent a series of drones over the peninsula, with Russian air defence shooting down at least one over the port of Sevastopol.

Reuters was not able to independently verify the reports.

Strikes on Russian-held targets have intensified in the past two weeks, especially in Crimea. Ukraine, without confirming any role in those attacks, says destroying enemy infrastructure is preparation for a planned ground assault.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/rus...023-05-07/

(May 7, 2023 at 10:08 am)purplepurpose Wrote:

(May 7, 2023 at 9:46 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: The Russians could stop their bleeding with a simple decision.

"No one knows with certainty how many people have been killed and wounded in Iraq since the 2003 United States invasion. However, we know that between 280,771-315,190 have died from direct war related violence caused by the U.S., its allies, the Iraqi military and police, and opposition forces from the time of the invasion through March 2023. The violent deaths of Iraqi civilians have occurred through aerial bombing, shelling, gunshots, suicide attacks, and fires started by bombing. Many civilians have also been injured".

I don't justify Russia. But don't tell me that USA and its allies are noble side that likes diplomacy. 

Tu quoque is an informal fallacy. By bringing up American behavior in a thread about the war in Ukraine, you certainly appear at the very least to prefer avoiding discussion of the Russian atrocities that are going on as we speak, if not justifying them.

Now, no one here has said that America is perfect and pure, and yes, I'm a USAF veteran (not of that war, but Desert Storm) who believed at the time and still does that our invasion of Iraq was not only illegal but stupid and bloody. And again, if it's really important to you, you could always start a thread about it.

Now that we have that out of the way, do you have any comments on the behavior of the Russians in Ukraine, or any understanding of why the Ukrainians might be willing to fight in order to not be subjugated by such an army as the Russian?

I notice as well that you did not provide any support for your claim that NATO is supporting Ukraine because it wants Ukrainian port facilities. Having trouble finding it?

(May 7, 2023 at 10:41 am)purplepurpose Wrote: Gideon Rose from Foreign Affairs on The Colbert Report in 2014, bragging about the US "stealing Russia's girlfriend" Ukraine, and admitting it could provoke Putin.


https://www.reddit.com/r/LibertarianPart...e_colbert/ (LINK TO A VIDEO).

I know it's chic to blame America for everything, but who was it who gave the order to invade? How did seizing Crimea and attacking eastern Ukraine diminish America's influence in Kyiv or increase Russian security, which is the necessary implication of your point here?