Faith is all about arguments based on the flimsy assumption of existence.

Considering that Nefertiti was elevated as a co-equal to the Pharaoh, and considering the fact how misogynist (at least modern) Islam is, i heavily doubt that Echanton was a proto-muslim. Also the fact that he lived some 2k years before Islam was cooked up.  

What puzzles me most is: It took Winter how long exactly to discover Nefertiti and Akhenaton? What an ignorant fool.

(June 3, 2023 at 3:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote: An ancient Egyptian pharaoh called "Akhenaten", worshiped a "single God" described as the "light of heaven and earth"; or the "Aten" in Ancient Egypt:

https://artsandculture.google.com/story/...dZIg?hl=en

This Monolithic pharoah didn't stop at that; he even called the Gods of ancient Egypt "a lie"; in a fashion identical to Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses before them.
Isn't that Muslims' faith? "There is no God but Allah"?

Ironically, he was the husband of the famous "Nefertiti" too.

Is this pharaoh the prophet known to Muslims and Christians as "Joseph; peace be upon him"?
Joseph PBUH in the Quran. was a slave bought by an Egyptian ruler, got appointed as the ruler's son, then became a royalty.

I do believe that Akhaneten is following the same deity as Muslims.
The light of heaven and earth:

Quote:Surah 24, The Quran:
https://quran.com/24?startingVerse=35

(35) Allah is the Light of the heavens and earth. The likeness of His light is that of a niche in which is a lamp; the lamp is in a glass; the glass is like a shining star – it is lit by [the oil of] a blessed olive tree, which is neither of the east nor of the west. Its oil would almost glow, even without being touched by fire. Light upon light; Allah guides to His light whom He wills. Allah sets forth comparisons for people, and Allah is All-Knowing of everything.

My position on that:
 
In the picture above you see the “Singular God” – Aten with its rays shining upon the royal family. This is comparable to modern Hinduism. In Hinduism you have many Gods, with a singular God “Shiva” or “The one who is not” (Which is also the same etymological meaning as Al-lah). Who is the source of them all. So there is only one God. But this God has many aspects. These aspects were very important to ancient people who relied on these “energies” in almost all matters of daily existence. In ancient Egypt there was no distinction between daily life and religious life.
 
   So what Akhenaten the “Heretic Pharaoh” did (the way I see it) was to try to restore the original meaning of Egyptian religion. Still he is being depicted as an insane type of personality like the Roman Emperor Nero, or Emperor Commodus (son of Marcus Aurelius in the movie “The Gladiator”). For instance. He built a whole new city in the middle of the desert called Amarna. He took away the powers of the clergy and made them angry. It is said that he would make foreign ambassadors wait for hours under the sun so that “they would be blessed by the rays of the God Aten”. Also: in the traditional Egyptian style, pharaohs were depicted as strong an athletic. During the reign of Aten the royal family was portrayed almost like people with genetic problems (see bellow). Besides, He had a daughter called Ankhesenamun, with whom he was married for a while. When he died his Vizier wanted to mary this woman in order to become the next Pharaoh of Egypt. So Ankhesenamun sent a Letter to SHupilliuliuma II (The Hittite Emperor) to send him his son to marry her and become the next pharaoh of Egypt. This Hittite Prince (Zannanza) was murdered in 1324 BC. Than this Vizier called Semenkhare seizes power anyway. This era is seen as a period of moral and economic decline for the whole of Egypt. Still it’s a period that remains interesting in terms of artistic production like the famous “Bust of Nefertiti” (Bellow).
 
   Akhenaten live between 1253-1336 BC. That a century before the reign of Ramses II (1279-1213 BC) – The last Great Egyptian Pharaoh who is (I believe) the pharaoh in the Biblical story of Moses. So are these two are related only in terms of Old Faith / New Faith. Akhenaten tried to simplify a religion that had become needlessly complicated. In the same Era in India they had started having rituals that lasted for weeks. Maybe he saw that the Old Ways were not working anymore, tried to reform it and ended up losing his own mind (that’s one possibility). But, the one who was destined to truly achieve this goal was Moses (who was also technically an Egyptian prince).
 
   I am quite confident in this approach, because that’s more or less how all Near-Eastern and other indo-European pantheons are working. There are many deities, yes. But there is always this Bigger Deity (Zeus, Marduk (Baylonia), Nerik (Hittite), or Odin or Jupiter) who is the source of all other deities. This Bigger Deity is usually the “God of Gods” and all the other deities have some particular tasks. In today’s India even small villages have their own Gods. So this is how I understand it.



Statue of Akhenaten: He looks more like a Woman than a man.



Satue of Kafra (4th Dynasty - 2500 BC): This is the typical Egyptian style. The Pharaoh is strong and athletic. This style does not change ever, exept during the reign of Akhenaten.



This is the Bust of Nefertiti in the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. Perhaps "the" most important artifact from the Amarna Period (the rule of Akhenaten). One really wonder how a guy like the guy above manages to end up with a girl like that though

You are wasting your time. Winter is not here to have conversations or to learn. Her is here to preach, reinforce his beliefs (by loudly professing them to anyone who is NOT interested in them) and to voice his hatred of everyone and everything he does not like, particularly non-muslims and non arabs, "the west" and of course the oh-so-evil USA.

Did i forget anything?

Each and every of his "Quranic reflection" threads are 100% about him trying to confirm his beliefs (i wonder why he needs to reinforce them so often. Does he doubt much?). He is desperately trying to pick anything and look for "Allah" in it, be it science or history.

(June 6, 2023 at 5:59 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You are wasting your time. Winter is not here to have conversations or to learn. Her is here to preach, reinforce his beliefs (by loudly professing them to anyone who is NOT interested in them) and to voice his hatred of everyone and everything he does not like, particularly non-muslims and non arabs, "the west" and of course the oh-so-evil USA.

Did i forget anything?

Each and every of his "Quranic reflection" threads are 100% about him trying to confirm his beliefs (i wonder why he needs to reinforce them so often. Does he doubt much?). He is desperately trying to pick anything and look for "Allah" in it, be it science or history.

Bold mine - Gog and Magog

(June 6, 2023 at 5:26 am).Leonardo17 Wrote:

(June 3, 2023 at 3:42 pm)WinterHold Wrote: An ancient Egyptian pharaoh called "Akhenaten", worshiped a "single God" described as the "light of heaven and earth"; or the "Aten" in Ancient Egypt:

https://artsandculture.google.com/story/...dZIg?hl=en

This Monolithic pharoah didn't stop at that; he even called the Gods of ancient Egypt "a lie"; in a fashion identical to Jesus, Mohammed, and Moses before them.
Isn't that Muslims' faith? "There is no God but Allah"?

Ironically, he was the husband of the famous "Nefertiti" too.

Is this pharaoh the prophet known to Muslims and Christians as "Joseph; peace be upon him"?
Joseph PBUH in the Quran. was a slave bought by an Egyptian ruler, got appointed as the ruler's son, then became a royalty.

I do believe that Akhaneten is following the same deity as Muslims.
The light of heaven and earth:

My position on that:
 
In the picture above you see the “Singular God” – Aten with its rays shining upon the royal family. This is comparable to modern Hinduism. In Hinduism you have many Gods, with a singular God “Shiva” or “The one who is not” (Which is also the same etymological meaning as Al-lah). Who is the source of them all. So there is only one God. But this God has many aspects. These aspects were very important to ancient people who relied on these “energies” in almost all matters of daily existence. In ancient Egypt there was no distinction between daily life and religious life.
 
   So what Akhenaten the “Heretic Pharaoh” did (the way I see it) was to try to restore the original meaning of Egyptian religion. Still he is being depicted as an insane type of personality like the Roman Emperor Nero, or Emperor Commodus (son of Marcus Aurelius in the movie “The Gladiator”). For instance. He built a whole new city in the middle of the desert called Amarna. He took away the powers of the clergy and made them angry. It is said that he would make foreign ambassadors wait for hours under the sun so that “they would be blessed by the rays of the God Aten”. Also: in the traditional Egyptian style, pharaohs were depicted as strong an athletic. During the reign of Aten the royal family was portrayed almost like people with genetic problems (see bellow). Besides, He had a daughter called Ankhesenamun, with whom he was married for a while. When he died his Vizier wanted to mary this woman in order to become the next Pharaoh of Egypt. So Ankhesenamun sent a Letter to SHupilliuliuma II (The Hittite Emperor) to send him his son to marry her and become the next pharaoh of Egypt. This Hittite Prince (Zannanza) was murdered in 1324 BC. Than this Vizier called Semenkhare seizes power anyway. This era is seen as a period of moral and economic decline for the whole of Egypt. Still it’s a period that remains interesting in terms of artistic production like the famous “Bust of Nefertiti” (Bellow).
 
   Akhenaten live between 1253-1336 BC. That a century before the reign of Ramses II (1279-1213 BC) – The last Great Egyptian Pharaoh who is (I believe) the pharaoh in the Biblical story of Moses. So are these two are related only in terms of Old Faith / New Faith. Akhenaten tried to simplify a religion that had become needlessly complicated. In the same Era in India they had started having rituals that lasted for weeks. Maybe he saw that the Old Ways were not working anymore, tried to reform it and ended up losing his own mind (that’s one possibility). But, the one who was destined to truly achieve this goal was Moses (who was also technically an Egyptian prince).
 
   I am quite confident in this approach, because that’s more or less how all Near-Eastern and other indo-European pantheons are working. There are many deities, yes. But there is always this Bigger Deity (Zeus, Marduk (Baylonia), Nerik (Hittite), or Odin or Jupiter) who is the source of all other deities. This Bigger Deity is usually the “God of Gods” and all the other deities have some particular tasks. In today’s India even small villages have their own Gods. So this is how I understand it.



Statue of Akhenaten: He looks more like a Woman than a man.



Satue of Kafra (4th Dynasty - 2500 BC): This is the typical Egyptian style. The Pharaoh is strong and athletic. This style does not change ever, exept during the reign of Akhenaten.



This is the Bust of Nefertiti in the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin. Perhaps "the" most important artifact from the Amarna Period (the rule of Akhenaten). One really wonder how a guy like the guy above manages to end up with a girl like that though

About "Akhnaten"'s body, he was depicted in his normal real form, unlike other Pharaohs who followed the fashion in ancient Egypt that depicts Pharaohs in almost god-like fashion with youthful bodies and ripped muscles..Egyptian statues are not real depictions:

https://www.thecollector.com/amarna-egypt-art/

Quote:Depictions of Akhenaten, both in sculpture and relief, were a deviation from this standard. Akhenaten’s representations show him with an almost feminine body, with wide hips and breasts. His statues and carved relief depictions showed him with a drooping belly, long spindly arms, and a protruding chin. There is no doubt that this must have been how he looked in real life. Scholars have debated whether this was just the looks he inherited from his parents or an indication of some sort of disease. Marfan syndrome is the most commonly suggested disease. It is a genetic disease that produces such physical traits in men.

Prophet Joseph peace be upon him was a prison inmate for years, we already know that being imprisoned without doing any physical activity for years raises your fat levels and make you saggy. There is also the possibility of having the Marfan syndrome , showing its signs later in life.

(June 6, 2023 at 5:59 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You are wasting your time. Winter is not here to have conversations or to learn. Her is here to preach, reinforce his beliefs (by loudly professing them to anyone who is NOT interested in them) and to voice his hatred of everyone and everything he does not like, particularly non-muslims and non arabs, "the west" and of course the oh-so-evil USA.

Did i forget anything?

Each and every of his "Quranic reflection" threads are 100% about him trying to confirm his beliefs (i wonder why he needs to reinforce them so often. Does he doubt much?). He is desperately trying to pick anything and look for "Allah" in it, be it science or history.

The word "reflection" itself is enough of a reply to you

(June 4, 2023 at 2:48 am)Deesse23 Wrote: Considering that Nefertiti was elevated as a co-equal to the Pharaoh, and considering the fact how misogynist (at least modern) Islam is, i heavily doubt that Echanton was a proto-muslim. Also the fact that he lived some 2k years before Islam was cooked up.  

What puzzles me most is: It took Winter how long exactly to discover Nefertiti and Akhenaton? What an ignorant fool.

Early-Middle Bronze Age societies were societies in which women were considered to be the equal of men. This started to change at the end of the middle Kingdom (second intermediate period: 1650-1550 BC. In that era Hyksos invaders from Asia took over almost all of Egypt. Their Capital was in Avaris in the Nile Delta. Their king (Apophis if I am correct), wanted to replace Egyptian Art with Minoan Art because he hated everything about Egyptian culture especially the Equal status that women had with their male counterparts. Ironically, it was a woman called Hatshepsut whose capital was in Thebes they kicked them out of the country with her two sons (Ahmose and Kamose). And kick started what I see as the final Chapter of Egyptian History Which is the New Kingdom (1550-1069 BC). Still, in the Temple of Ramses at Aswan (Second picture bellow), you can see that Ramses has more than one wife who were depicted at about 1/8th of his own size. So we can safely say that starting from Hatshepsut (1473-1458 BC), the status of Egyptian women started to decline in the New-Kingdom. (or that’s how I read it)



Final resting place of Queen Hattshepsut. The architecture of this monument was studied in the design of the MAusoleum of Kemal Ataturk in Ankara.

 

This is the temple of Ramses in Aswan. Ramses is depicted as even bigger than the Gods (The one in the middle is Horus). The tiny creatures next to his legs are his wives. Tinier creatures between his legs are his children.
 
In the Quran we hear him telling to Moses "Don't you see that rivers are flowing beneath my feet?" 
 
Meaning: anyone entering Egypt from the southern regions of Africa would be met with these gigantic statues, showing how the mighty Nile is flowing from bellow the feet of the Pharaoh of Egypt.
 
We had this discussion with Grand Nudger in the thread called "Who is the Pharaoh in the Muslim Holy Book"

(June 6, 2023 at 6:26 am)arewethereyet Wrote:

(June 6, 2023 at 5:59 am)Deesse23 Wrote: You are wasting your time. Winter is not here to have conversations or to learn. Her is here to preach, reinforce his beliefs (by loudly professing them to anyone who is NOT interested in them) and to voice his hatred of everyone and everything he does not like, particularly non-muslims and non arabs, "the west" and of course the oh-so-evil USA.

Did i forget anything?

Each and every of his "Quranic reflection" threads are 100% about him trying to confirm his beliefs (i wonder why he needs to reinforce them so often. Does he doubt much?). He is desperately trying to pick anything and look for "Allah" in it, be it science or history.

Bold mine - Gog and Magog

...The Aten, focus on that for now. And look carefully in the horizon: the nuke of Russia & China (or Gog & Magog) is near. But that's another topic.

Still, huh? Fine, how many of his daughters did your prophet impregnate in magic book?