(June 20, 2023 at 11:17 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 2:31 am)Belacqua Wrote: Dante, following Thomas Aquinas and the general ideas of Neoplatonic philosophers, says that there is no time or space in heaven. It is not in the material world. 

The experience of heaven, according to those guys, is like a single instant of extreme bliss. But there would be no chronoperception because time would not be passing.

I think hardly anybody today believes that afterlife is real, but that Near Death Experiences are not glimpses of it. Sure, that's entirely possible (and arguably probable if we assume afterlife is real), but we should be trying to refute the form of religion most people believe (or at least claim to believe) in.

You don't think anyone believes in an afterlife?  That's pretty much the basis for Christianity.

(June 20, 2023 at 11:29 am)arewethereyet Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 11:17 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: I think hardly anybody today believes that afterlife is real, but that Near Death Experiences are not glimpses of it. Sure, that's entirely possible (and arguably probable if we assume afterlife is real), but we should be trying to refute the form of religion most people believe (or at least claim to believe) in.

You don't think anyone believes in an afterlife?  That's pretty much the basis for Christianity.

No, I think it is rare that somebody believes:
1. Afterlife is real.
2. Near-death experiences are not glimpses of an afterlife.
Other than that, there are some denominations of Christianity that don't believe in afterlife. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. And it's hard to tell what the early Christians believed. The Gospels contain verses that appear to deny afterlife, saying things as "Nobody has yet been to heaven.".

I think you know nothing Jon Snow.

I'll go ahead and say it - I don't know what that means.

(June 20, 2023 at 10:52 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 7:56 am)emjay Wrote: Presumably not in The Divine Comedy? So why does he in that describe heaven, hell, and purgatory, in this other much more vividly imaginative sense... of a realm in space and time... of various levels and with distinct and imaginative 'sin-centric' punishments etc. If he really views heaven as a single everlasting moment of bliss, and presumably hell as something like the opposite (? ie something like a single moment of everlasting pain/suffering), then even if not literal how could the description in Divine Comedy be considered in any way analoguous, allegorical or symbolic (ie of a single, everlasting moment)?

The Divine Comedy is a comedy, it is intended to make people laugh, not to teach them what afterlife is like. Any more than Charlie and Chocolate Factory is intended to teach about how chocolate factories work.

Nah, it's not a comedy in that sense. Have you read it? What it is is very surreal, imaginative etc, but what it is not, is funny.

ETA: I've just asked ChatGPT why it's called a comedy, and basically it says that in those times, a comedy was a specific type of literature that had a happy or positive ending, different from the use of the word today, to denote humour.

(June 20, 2023 at 11:49 am)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 11:29 am)arewethereyet Wrote: You don't think anyone believes in an afterlife?  That's pretty much the basis for Christianity.

No, I think it is rare that somebody believes:
1. Afterlife is real.
2. Near-death experiences are not glimpses of an afterlife.
Other than that, there are some denominations of Christianity that don't believe in afterlife. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. And it's hard to tell what the early Christians believed. The Gospels contain verses that appear to deny afterlife, saying things as "Nobody has yet been to heaven.".

How can it be rare that there is belief in an afterlife when it is common that NDEs are glimpses of an afterlife?

For the record, JWs do believe in an afterlife of sorts, it’s just kind of wonky.

Boru

(June 20, 2023 at 11:51 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I think you know nothing Jon Snow.

I think there is nothing in the New Testament that cannot be interpreted in the framework "There is no afterlife, but there will be a resurrection of the dead.". The only thing remotely coming to that is when the apostles were afraid that the being walking on water is a ghost ("phantasma", whatever that word really meant). Jesus on the cross said "Truly I tell you today you will be with me in heaven.", which can be interpreted either way depending on where the comma is.
The Witch of Endor in the Old Testament does indeed imply the author believed in afterlife. But the Old Testament is also full of verses explicitly denying afterlife, such as Ecclesiastes 9:5.

(June 20, 2023 at 12:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 11:49 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: No, I think it is rare that somebody believes:
1. Afterlife is real.
2. Near-death experiences are not glimpses of an afterlife.
Other than that, there are some denominations of Christianity that don't believe in afterlife. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. And it's hard to tell what the early Christians believed. The Gospels contain verses that appear to deny afterlife, saying things as "Nobody has yet been to heaven.".

How can it be rare that there is belief in an afterlife when it is common that NDEs are glimpses of an afterlife?

For the record, JWs do believe in an afterlife of sorts, it’s just kind of wonky.

Boru

I am saying that the vast majority of people who believe in afterlife also believe NDEs are glimpses of an afterlife. NDErs report having chronoperception.

(June 20, 2023 at 12:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 11:49 am)FlatAssembler Wrote: No, I think it is rare that somebody believes:
1. Afterlife is real.
2. Near-death experiences are not glimpses of an afterlife.
Other than that, there are some denominations of Christianity that don't believe in afterlife. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example. And it's hard to tell what the early Christians believed. The Gospels contain verses that appear to deny afterlife, saying things as "Nobody has yet been to heaven.".

How can it be rare that there is belief in an afterlife when it is common that NDEs are glimpses of an afterlife?

For the record, JWs do believe in an afterlife of sorts, it’s just kind of wonky.

Boru

As far as I know, JWs believe that there is no afterlife, but that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the Judgement Day. Which, I think, can be refuted by the fact that canibalism exists.

(June 20, 2023 at 2:38 pm)FlatAssembler Wrote:

(June 20, 2023 at 12:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: How can it be rare that there is belief in an afterlife when it is common that NDEs are glimpses of an afterlife?

For the record, JWs do believe in an afterlife of sorts, it’s just kind of wonky.

Boru

As far as I know, JWs believe that there is no afterlife, but that there will be a resurrection of the dead at the Judgement Day. Which, I think, can be refuted by the fact that canibalism exists.

Isn’t resurrection a form of afterlife? I mean, you’re alive, then dead, then alive again. Being alive after you’ve died is life after death, which is what ‘afterlife’ means.

What’s cannibalism got to do with resurrection?

Boru