Magic...book.

The magic book might as well be a magic eye book for all the perceptual gymnastics you need to perform to see what you want to believe.

Quote:Isaiah 53 is one single passage that has probably led to Millions accepting Christ because it such a Clear Prophecy about Him that pre-dates His Birth:

No it isn't.

More complete and utter bullshit.
Isaiah was was talking about Israel. This is crap from radical Christian apologists. Rabbinic Judaism says Isaiah 53 universally acknowledges the “servant” to be the nation of Israel who endured suffering at the hands of the invading nations. ((Midrash Rabbah (Numbers XXIII.2), Zohar (Genesis & Leviticus), Talmud (Brochos 5a), Rashi, Joseph Kara, Ibn Ezra, Joseph Kimchi, David Kimchi, Nachmanadies, Abarbinbanel, et all))

Origen, a prominent and influential church father, conceded in the year 248 CE – that the consensus among the Jews in his time was that Isaiah 53 “bore reference to the whole [Jewish] people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.” ((Origen, Contra Celsum, Chadwick, Henry; Cambridge Press, book 1, chapter 55, page 50))

The broad consensus among Jewish, and even some Christian commentators, that the “servant” in Isaiah 52-53 refers to the nation of Israel is understandable. Isaiah 53, which is the fourth of four renowned Servant Songs, is umbilically connected to its preceding chapters. The “servant” in each of the three previous Servant Songs is plainly and repeatedly identified as the nation of Israel.

Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”

Isaiah 44:1
But now hear, O Jacob my servant, Israel whom I have chosen!

Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 45:4
For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I called you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.

Isaiah 48:20
Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea, declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it, send it out to the end of the earth; say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

Isaiah 49:3
And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

It's not Jesus.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/isaiah

At the time the 3 different authors whose writings are combined in Isaiah, Jews do not (and still does not) accept the bullshit of Fundamentalist "prophesy".
It's ALL based on a foundational error Christians made up about prophesy and this passage.

The ancient role of a prophet in Hebrew culture was to interpret the words or will of their god to the people OF THEIR OWN DAY. NOT to predict the future.
So you often hear fundies talking about "prophesy", and how various prophesies were a 'foretelling", or prediction of the future, and indeed they count them up as "proof" that Jesus or whatever HAS to be true, as the "prophecy" came true. In fact Deuteronomy forbade fortune telling, omen reading and divination, thus we know it was an abomination to even think in these terms for many/most centuries in Hebrew culture.

Deuteronomy 18:10
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft"
Christian fundies are interpreting omens. It was forbidden.

Isaiah was not talking about a future time. He was obviously talking about Israel. With the rise of Apocalypticism, around the turn of the millennium, this changed somewhat, and is evidenced in many Christian writings, including the gospels, as they adopted the notions absent in ancient Israel, but coming into popular view with the Essenes. In terms of Hebrew culture, the "telling of or prediction of" the future, was unknown, and forbidden, and not at ALL a view of the major prophets themselves. However in the the new view, certain "hidden meanings" or "pesherim" began to be looked for, in the practice of Midrash. The name for this is called "pesher", (or seeking a "hidden meaning"), which was not even known to the original speaker/writer, but only "revealed" later to certain believers. Originally, the (plural) "pesherim" were only fully revealed to the Son of Righteousness, (the leader of the Essenes), and the idea was first found and fully understood after scholars read the Dead Sea scrolls, and was a sub category of "Midrash", (or study of the texts).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash

Thus we see that "prophesy" as fortune telling as began to be practiced in Judaism around the First Century, (and picked up by Christians and the gospel writers at the time), really was a very late invention and never a classical part of Hebrew scripture, or understanding, either interpretation, or intention, and certainly was not the function of the ancient office of "prophet", in Hebrew culture, who was to be a "mouthpiece" to the people of their own day, and not Madame Zelda with her crystal ball.

Matthew 16:4 "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. Jesus then left them and went away."

This is just more fundamentalist bullshit being foisted on us by an ignorant preacher.
It's also hilarious that this cherry-picking sites Crossan, who teaches the resurrection never happened, and that it was a "parable". LOL

Nishant, why are you opening up another thread when you should be answering the point you were complaining about in the contingency thread? This makes it look like you're avoiding it.

(July 23, 2023 at 12:41 am)Nishant Xavier Wrote: "That Jesus was crucified [under Pontius Pilate] is as certain as anything historical can ever be" ~ Liberal Scholar John Dominic Crossan.

There is a unique "Isaiah Argument" for Christianity that exists for no other religion. Isaiah was a Hebrew Prophet in the Royal Court of King Hezekiah. He delivered various prophecies about the future, especially about the Messiah, and what this Messiah would do when He came.

1. Isaiah 53 is one single passage that has probably led to Millions accepting Christ because it such a Clear Prophecy about Him that pre-dates His Birth:

Quote:

---

"3 He was despised and rejected by others; a man of suffering and acquainted with infirmity, and as one from whom others hide their faces; he was despised, and we held him of no account. 4 Surely he has borne our infirmities and carried our diseases, yet we accounted him stricken, struck down by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the punishment that made us whole, and by his bruises we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter; and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By a perversion of justice he was taken away. Who could have imagined his future? For he was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people."

---

This is a Clear Prophecy that the Messiah will offer Himself as a Sacrificial Lamb for the sins of His People. Only Jesus Christ has ever done this.

Here is a Video about this with some 4 MN views from Tree Life of Ministries in Israel itself. It is in Hebrew, but there are English sub-titles.

https://youtu.be/cGz9BVJ_k6s

2. This also shows the Pharisaic/Rabbinic conception of the Messiah is wrong: Although some Pre-Christian Rabbis got it right, that the Messiah would suffer, after Isaiah 53 caused such great controversy that many became Christian because of it, because it was evidently fulfilled in Jesus Christ, some began to deny the Messiah would suffer and die for our sins, and instead claimed this Prophecy was referring to the Nation of Israel. Even a slight knowledge of Isaiah suffices to refute that: Isaiah says the Servant is Righteous and Innocent and suffers for the sins of His People. Right from the beginning of Isaiah, however, the Prophet says the people most certainly are not righteous and sinless, but fallen and sinful! Hence, the Servant is not the people themselves, and that is a Pharisaic/Rabbinic Sophism which Christianity has often answered before.

See Isaiah 1:4 for e.g.: "Woe, sinful nation, people laden with iniquity, offspring who do evil, children who act corruptly, who have forsaken the Lord, who have despised the Holy One of Israel, who are utterly estranged!"

Lol, easiest false argument to ever knock down. Granted that the people are a sinful nation, therefore, and the Messiah is an Innocent Victim suffering for their and the world's sins, it clearly follows that the Servant/Messiah is not the people themselves, but the Messiah who dies for the sins of His people. Next, the Messiah is not Israel, but a Son of Israel, whose mission/vocation is to gather in the Gentiles/non-Jews, and bring God's Salvation to the ends of Earth. Isaiah 53 is actually the 4th of 4 Suffering Servant Passages in Isaiah, and this is clearly stated in an earlier one, Isaiah 49: "5 And now the Lord says, who formed me in the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob [Israel] back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the sight of the Lord, and my God has become my strength— 6 he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the survivors of Israel; I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

The Messiah is someone who has to spread God's Message of Salvation to every Nation, as Jesus Christ alone has clearly done in history; there were other false messiahs in Jesus Christ's time, some of them are mentioned in Acts and by Josephus, but neither of them did these 2 things.

3. Why this Prophecy is evidence for Divine Omniscience: So, as mentioned, only 2 things are taken for granted here (1) That Jesus Christ truly was crucified, which even Crossan says is as certain as a historical fact can ever be. (2) That Christianity did spread throughout the world, bringing the message of salvation from the God of Israel and His Suffering Messiah, exactly as the prophecies of the Servant in 49 and 53 require.

So, how did all this come about? Just a "chance" fulfilment as usual? Gotta love that chance. Rather, since it's extremely unlikely Jesus Christ could ever have known that the True Messiah was supposed to die and sacrifice Himself for our sins - as most of the Rabbis have held otherwise - unless in fact He were the True Messiah and Son of God and, even having done that (as Crossan and others acknowledge He did), could never have ensured that His Message would live on and reach the farthest ends of the Earth, as it had to per Isaiah 49, and as it actually has in history, then that's further evidence of Christ's Omniscience and Omnipotence. He was able to foretell these things and then bring it about because He was God.

Thoughts?

Idiot

I have an idea. Why don't we just let NX talk to himself since that's what he's really doing anyway?

Don't feed the troll.

(July 23, 2023 at 9:22 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I have an idea. Why don't we just let NX talk to himself since that's what he's really doing anyway?

Don't feed the troll.

There was a guy a long time ago on the Christianity part of Bolt.com, and he would just talk to himself in his threads. Every once in a while, we'd engage with him. I wonder if he's still around somewhere since that message board forum disappeared years ago.

For an entity that knows everything, this god of yours sure fucking stupid. Without a doubt, the dumbest thing in existence.

(July 23, 2023 at 9:22 am)arewethereyet Wrote: I have an idea.  Why don't we just let NX talk to himself since that's what he's really doing anyway?

Don't feed the troll.

AF needs a section of the website that's invisible to search engines and to people who haven't signed in - some sort of pit where copypasta can be left to quietly compost.  We could call it "Wharrgarbl."

(July 23, 2023 at 9:33 am)no one Wrote: For an entity that knows everything, this god of yours sure fucking stupid. Without a doubt, the dumbest thing in existence.

Or the dumbest thing in nonexistence, as it were.