(August 6, 2023 at 5:57 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: I don’t see the Soviet Union as a “dark page” in history like the Third Reich etc. 

Then you are wrong, terribly wrong.

Who killed more soviet russian people? Hitler or Stalin. Who killed more of his own people?............If you have to think more than a second about this, you maybe realize why you are wrong.

The only fundamental difference between the nazi and soviet state does not lie in the amount of human suffering caused. Soviet russia easily beats nazi Germany on that. The difference is that Soviet Russia never targeted a whole people for elimination. Yet, looking at Holodomor (see below), Stalin didnt bother so much about millions of ukrainians being starved to death either.
If your only defense for Stalin has to be this fact, then yes, the soviet union was a "dark page".

(August 6, 2023 at 5:57 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: But should we go ahead and destroy every monument / church / palace etc. that were built by ancient Kings and Emperors?

Nobody, but you, ever made this suggestion. Why are you attacking this straw man?

(August 6, 2023 at 5:57 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: But for me, this statue was a symbol of resistance of a Communist / Socialist state against complete barbarians who were the Nazis.

Sometimes two evils are fighting each other. I see no rule telling me i have to root for one of them. Fighting an evil doesnt make you good, fighting Nazism doesnt make you automatically good*.in case of the CCCP maybe just slightly less so. Thats all.

(August 6, 2023 at 6:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Simply because the Soviets helped defeat the Nazis isn’t a justification for keeping Soviet symbols on display in Ukraine. Because, you know, recent events.

Looking at Holodomor, i am rather surprised soviet symbols werent removed in Ukraine much earlier than that.



*German communists like Ulbricht or Mielke fled from nazi persecution, just to erect their own personal terror state after 1945, including the "shoot on sight" order for those who wanted to commit the crime of leaving their country. Did being persecuted by nazis make them good? I suggest reading up on Mielke before you answer this question.

Statue enthusiasts are the best.

(August 6, 2023 at 5:57 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

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The hammer and sickle of the 200 feet tall statue known as the Fatherland Mother in Kiev is being replaced by the Ukrainian Trident.
 
I am not that happy about the event.
 
   Like most Soviet monuments, this monument is incredibly ugly. Many old soviet monuments are being distorted or completely removed in many places in Eastern-Europe because all of these new democratic nations want to distance themselves from their Soviet past. I have some reserves on that attitude. I don’t see the Soviet Union as a “dark page” in history like the Third Reich etc. As see it as an ordinary page in history like monarchies, empires, colonial empires etc. Statues of colonialist / pro-slavery personalities have been desecrated in places in England and many street names bearing the names of colonialist personalities were removed and replaced by the names of African anti-colonialist resistants’ in Germany. But should we go ahead and destroy every monument / church / palace etc. that were built by ancient Kings and Emperors? I am not in favor of keeping all Soviet monuments. But for me, this statue was a symbol of resistance of a Communist / Socialist state against complete barbarians who were the Nazis. So I think it was simply better the old way. Maybe I would have built another bigger / better statue somewhere in Kyiv as soon as the war is over. This statue is simply ugly as hell

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We you should remember is that the peoples of Eastern Europe didn't see the Soviets as liberators, but rather, as conquerors. The Ukrainians, while part of the USSR from its founding, also hated the Russians as a result of the Holodomor. So taking down the statues -- or removing the symbols -- imposed upon them by and glorifying their conquerors seems pretty understandable.

(August 6, 2023 at 6:03 am)arewethereyet Wrote: Let me see if I have this straight.  You think that a country that has been invaded by another country should keep the invading country's monuments?  As what?  A reminder of the loss and destruction being caused?

That’s a country that doesn’t exist anymore. And Ukraine was a part of that country that no longer exists. So to me it’s like a Russian Cathedral built in Imperial times. A cultural heritage.

(August 15, 2023 at 5:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(August 6, 2023 at 6:03 am)arewethereyet Wrote: Let me see if I have this straight.  You think that a country that has been invaded by another country should keep the invading country's monuments?  As what?  A reminder of the loss and destruction being caused?

That’s a country that doesn’t exist anymore. And Ukraine was a part of that country that no longer exists. So to me it’s like a Russian Cathedral built in Imperial times. A cultural heritage.

There's a good and valid reason why Nazi iconography is banned in some countries, even though the Third Reich no longer exists.

Boru

(August 6, 2023 at 6:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(July 19, 2023 at 12:00 pm)Helios Wrote: That depends on what your enemy has to counter them. Their condition and if you have he logistics to maintain them. Otherwise all you have done is deployed target practice for the enemy or a logistical  albatross around your own neck.

(August 6, 2023 at 5:57 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: The hammer and sickle of the 200 feet tall statue known as the Fatherland Mother in Kiev is being replaced by the Ukrainian Trident.
 
I am not that happy about the event.
 
   Like most Soviet monuments, this monument is incredibly ugly. Many old soviet monuments are being distorted or completely removed in many places in Eastern-Europe because all of these new democratic nations want to distance themselves from their Soviet past. I have some reserves on that attitude. I don’t see the Soviet Union as a “dark page” in history like the Third Reich etc. As see it as an ordinary page in history like monarchies, empires, colonial empires etc. Statues of colonialist / pro-slavery personalities have been desecrated in places in England and many street names bearing the names of colonialist personalities were removed and replaced by the names of African anti-colonialist resistants’ in Germany. But should we go ahead and destroy every monument / church / palace etc. that were built by ancient Kings and Emperors? I am not in favor of keeping all Soviet monuments. But for me, this statue was a symbol of resistance of a Communist / Socialist state against complete barbarians who were the Nazis. So I think it was simply better the old way. Maybe I would have built another bigger / better statue somewhere in Kyiv as soon as the war is over. This statue is simply ugly as hell

But the statue isn’t being destroyed. The hammer and sickle on the shield is being removed.

You seem upset that the emblem of a country which no longer exists is being replaced by the emblem of a country that has been illegally invaded by the successor of the country who did the invading. You might do well to inform yourself about how Ukraine fared under the Soviet Empire.

Simply because the Soviets helped defeat the Nazis isn’t a justification for keeping Soviet symbols on display in Ukraine. Because, you know, recent events.

Boru

You may be right.
 

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The thing is: I don’t hate the USSR that much. You know, for instance path-finder, the first robot on the surface of Mars, was a result of US and Soviet engineering. Its predecessor was a remotely guided robot that was designed to operate on the Moon (pure Soviet design). The ISS is a result of US-Russia collaboration after the collapse of the Soviet-Union. I’m not saying it was heaven on earth. But Kiev was an important city within that country. So Was Azerbaijan, and Georgia and/or Kazakhstan for instance. There was a different social contract. A social contract that was partly based on Marxist ideology. So I see it as a political venture that didn’t work (for many reasons). DO you know that the game Tetris (a brick falling game that was the predecessor of modern video games) is of Russian design? American contractors had to find the designer of that game in Moscow in the late 80’s to get the royalties and commercialize the game in the rest of the world.
 
Finally, in the 2010’s I went several times to listen to the Red Army Choir. I was very moved when the chief of that orchestra (also a relic of the past) said “War is terrible thing, I hope that no one in uniforms other than us ever comes to this beautiful country”.
 
So I’m not a nostalgic. But Heyç Yuri Gagarin was from the Soviet Union. So that’s all I’m saying.

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(August 15, 2023 at 5:45 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:

(August 6, 2023 at 6:21 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: But the statue isn’t being destroyed. The hammer and sickle on the shield is being removed.

You seem upset that the emblem of a country which no longer exists is being replaced by the emblem of a country that has been illegally invaded by the successor of the country who did the invading. You might do well to inform yourself about how Ukraine fared under the Soviet Empire.

Simply because the Soviets helped defeat the Nazis isn’t a justification for keeping Soviet symbols on display in Ukraine. Because, you know, recent events.

Boru

You may be right.
 

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The thing is: I don’t hate the USSR that much. You know, for instance path-finder, the first robot on the surface of Mars, was a result of US and Soviet engineering. Its predecessor was a remotely guided robot that was designed to operate on the Moon (pure Soviet design). The ISS is a result of US-Russia collaboration after the collapse of the Soviet-Union. I’m not saying it was heaven on earth. But Kiev was an important city within that country. So Was Azerbaijan, and Georgia and/or Kazakhstan for instance. There was a different social contract. A social contract that was partly based on Marxist ideology. So I see it as a political venture that didn’t work (for many reasons). DO you know that the game Tetris (a brick falling game that was the predecessor of modern video games) is of Russian design? American contractors had to find the designer of that game in Moscow in the late 80’s to get the royalties and commercialize the game in the rest of the world.
 
Finally, in the 2010’s I went several times to listen to the Red Army Choir. I was very moved when the chief of that orchestra (also a relic of the past) said “War is terrible thing, I hope that no one in uniforms other than us ever comes to this beautiful country”.
 
So I’m not a nostalgic. But Heyç Yuri Gagarin was from the Soviet Union. So that’s all I’m saying.

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It's not about Pathinder. It's not about the ISS or social contracts or Tetris or the Red Army Choir or Yuri Gagarin. It's about whether you can grasp the notion that a country which was brutalized by the USSR might prefer to display its own symbols over Soviet-era ones.

Can you?

Boru

Brutalized by the USSR and now by the Russian Fed. A one-two punch in living memory. The Russo-Ukranian border is going to end up being one of the most heavily militarized on the planet for a century.

(August 15, 2023 at 6:44 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Brutalized by the USSR and now by the Russian Fed.  A one-two punch in living memory.  The Russo-Ukranian border is going to end up being one of the most heavily militarized on the planet for a century.

Agreed. The only question is where that border will be.

Boru

The ring road around moscow seems like a good place.