(August 19, 2023 at 10:37 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 10:04 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't think you're going to find an argument that works Barry.  There's only one successful argument for a god.  Successful meaning that there's nothing obviously wrong with it.  The main criticism of that successful argument, ironically, is that it's not convincing.  Think about that.  The very best logical argument that man has ever devised, in all of his time very much trying to devise a successful argument, is unconvincing.  If the very best argument can't convince, then why would these bush league offerings in thread convince?  

Were you even convinced by them?  Was it because you don't know how the universe was created that you came to believe in christ, for example?  Or, if you prefer, do you really think that the people here are just terrible motherfuckers who harbor secret god beliefs?  Is that who you are, is that all that your christianity is?

Hi GN, nice to hear from you again. I don’t expect to find an “argument that works”. That’s beyond anyone. Faith is a gift from God. I don’t think anyone is a TMF nor do I know what the forum members believe. Or don’t believe. I do believe many people feel threatened by the idea of a creator God, because it might mean they are accountable for their sins. The Christian God is a God of forgiveness. Catholics can go to confession and our sins are forgiven by God through the agency of the priest. Very few baptised Catholics go to Mass in Australia (my country) or Europe. Less than 10%, it’s heading for 5%. Even less go to confession. Confession is very liberating. 
I digress.
Do I believe in Christ because I “don’t know how the universe was created”. Well, I’ve been a Catholic all my life, and always believed God created the world. Never doubted it. But think a lot about it. Not because of any of the theories against God, but because of the personal implications for me. If you don’t believe in God, that’s complicated too. 
The Christian god is a personal God. I’m on a lifetime journey trying to understand and to obey the “Greatest Commandment” of God given to us by Jesus Christ: to love god with all my heart, soul, strength and mind. Jesus said the second commandment is the same: to love my neighbour as myself. 
You don’t have to be a Christian to obey the second. And many Christians don’t. We all struggle with both of these. 
Cheers Barry

Hey Barry. 

What are your thoughts on what happens to the souls of aborted babies?

God is as real as anything else, considering "God" is an idea/thought form/egregore that is actively sustained by most people on this planet. Specific religious inclinations have little to do with this.....if you believe in God, and most people do, you are part of a group of people who must necessarily believe in magic. Not an altogether indefensible position, given we (as humans) should always make room for the magical in our lives, if for no other reason than to sustain the inner child, a natural source of curiosity and inquisitive thinking. I would have to assume that atheists are people who reject their inner child, instead choosing to place intellectual maturity on the pedestal. There is no doubt that atheists are smarter people than theists. No doubt at all. But I would have to wonder if the atheist's superior intelligence serves as a better mechanism for action in the world, than a theist's more childish cognition.

(August 19, 2023 at 10:37 am)Barry Wrote: I’m on a lifetime journey trying to understand and to obey the “Greatest Commandment” of God given to us by Jesus Christ: to love god with all my heart, soul, strength and mind. Jesus said the second commandment is the same: to love my neighbour as myself. 

Does God himself obey these commandments?

(August 19, 2023 at 10:29 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:16 am)Barry Wrote: So who or what was?

The event of the Big Bang has no past light cone. It's a singularity. Time begins there, just as England begins at Land's End.  So the Big Bang can have no preceding cause.

Barry wouldn't know a light cone if you sat down and explained it to him, learning stuff is hard, believing what you have been told is easy.

(August 19, 2023 at 10:37 am)Barry Wrote: Hi GN, nice to hear from you again. I don’t expect to find an “argument that works”. That’s beyond anyone. Faith is a gift from God. I don’t think anyone is a TMF nor do I know what the forum members believe. Or don’t believe. I do believe many people feel threatened by the idea of a creator God, because it might mean they are accountable for their sins. The Christian God is a God of forgiveness. Catholics can go to confession and our sins are forgiven by God through the agency of the priest. Very few baptised Catholics go to Mass in Australia (my country) or Europe. Less than 10%, it’s heading for 5%. Even less go to confession. Confession is very liberating. 
I digress.

If you don't actually think that we're all a bunch of terrible motherfuckers with secret god beliefs, then you shouldn't say it.  It makes you look like a twat, and it doesn't help your religion or your evangelism in the slightest to imagine as much.  People are leaving your church because it was exactly this shitty, and worse. You know that.

Quote:Do I believe in Christ because I “don’t know how the universe was created”. Well, I’ve been a Catholic all my life, and always believed God created the world. Never doubted it. But think a lot about it. Not because of any of the theories against God, but because of the personal implications for me. If you don’t believe in God, that’s complicated too. 
The Christian god is a personal God. I’m on a lifetime journey trying to understand and to obey the “Greatest Commandment” of God given to us by Jesus Christ: to love god with all my heart, soul, strength and mind. Jesus said the second commandment is the same: to love my neighbour as myself. 
You don’t have to be a Christian to obey the second. And many Christians don’t. We all struggle with both of these. 
Cheers Barry

There we have it.  You're saying things that didn't convince you.

(August 19, 2023 at 9:40 am)Barry Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:07 am)LinuxGal Wrote: I saved ten percent on tithing by switching to unbelief.

You should be a Catholic. The average Catholic gives less than 1%. So few Catholics are attending Mass now we may soon pay people to attend. 
Cheers Barry

I was Catholic. and I made weekly offerings at morning Mass, all the way up until 2002 when I realized I was literally funding jackpot lawsuit judgments for victims of priests who like boy butt sex. And when they got caught at St. Philomena's the bishop moved 'em to fresh hunting grounds at Our Lady of Lourdes. The Church may be one, Catholic, and apostolic but she sure as shit ain't holy.

(August 19, 2023 at 10:26 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:29 am)Barry Wrote: Genesis is not supposed to be understood literally. Despite some fundamentalists doing so.

The Catholic Church interprets Genesis literally with the doctrine of Original Sin. If Adam and Eve never really ate the forbidden fruit, then babies don't need to get baptized.

Hi LG, how can it be checkmate twice when the game is still happening? 
Baptism is indeed a challenging matter. And Original Sin. Babies don’t “need to be baptised”. But the CC says OS is forgiven through Baptism. In Australia 95% of babies being baptised in the CC are in families who are not practising Catholics and whose motivation often is so the child qualifies for a Catholic School. Or just for family or cultural reasons. 
I find this difficult to reconcile. But many things in life are difficult to understand. 
Cheers Barry

The consequences of fraud and extortion played out over centuries. People who don't believe get their children baptised because the catholic church has been in the process of capturing childcare and schooling. On the taxpayer dime, no less. Nothing to see there, nothing untoward whatsoever, I'm sure.

Here in the us, we pay religious nuts 82 billion dollars a year for the privilege of having them talk shit about us and molest our children. That's just welfare, tithes and donations are more. All of it tax free, ofc. I wonder if jesus would have used that money the same way?

(August 19, 2023 at 10:47 am)LinuxGal Wrote:

(August 19, 2023 at 9:40 am)Barry Wrote: You should be a Catholic. The average Catholic gives less than 1%. So few Catholics are attending Mass now we may soon pay people to attend. 
Cheers Barry

I was Catholic. and I made weekly offerings at morning Mass, all the way up until 2002 when I realized I was literally funding jackpot lawsuit judgments for victims of priests who like boy butt sex. And when they got caught at St. Philomena's the bishop moved 'em to fresh hunting grounds at Our Lady of Lourdes. The Church may be one, Catholic, and apostolic but she sure as shit ain't holy.

Hi again, LG. Yes, abuse and the cover up by church leaders was a terrible thing. It doesn’t affect my faith in God, nor my belief in Jesus Christ, nor the Church he founded. But nobody is immune from sinning. That’s why we have confession, but almost no one goes to confession any more. I do and find it very cleansing.
Cheers Barry

The molestors go to confession and find it very liberating too..in that the churches first instinct was to shield the child molestors and attack the victims. Even though we subsidize the church to the tune of the gdp of a small nation, it's now telling you and yours that it can't offer the magic cracker and wine in this or that place anymore, because of it's legal fees. If they were anyone else, we'd hit them for witness tampering.

To put it bluntly, they don't seem to see what they do as a service. It's a product. Not a god problem, not a jesus problem, certainly a church problem. We don't, for the record "all sin". I've never molested a fucking child, so take that bullshit and stuff it.