(August 29, 2023 at 9:59 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 1:00 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: That's why they need to be carefully formulated and not hijacked by religious people.  Ideally, religion should be weeded out of society altogether.  A long, slow process, no doubt.

I'm not a fan of using government to tell people what to feel, only to tell them how they ought to behave.

As for their being hijacked, in a democracy are those principles being hijacked if they enjoy popular support? I'd rather see a judicial branch that enforces the wall of separation we enjoy, rather than a legislature telling people what they can and cannot say. Once you allow government to decide what is and is not permissible speech, you've granted it a power that it will almost certainly abuse.

Most of Europe has hatespeech laws. Seems to work OK.

(August 29, 2023 at 10:13 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 5:02 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: Not on that basis, no.  I'd rather they only voted if such a view was informed by reason.

So it's not about results, but rather about how they arrive at their decision? It's not so much about real-world results, but moral dudgeon? I volunteered at a religious food bank about 15 years ago. They handed out food, no questions asked, to anyone who showed up, with no religious requirements (attending church, avowing belief, and so on) at all.

Was I wrong? Were they wrong? Are your personal feelings really more important than helping the needy? I didn't feel my opinion was more important than their hunger.

Food bank good.
Religion bad.
The feeding of the poor good.
The continued support of religion in society bad.

(August 29, 2023 at 10:31 pm)Angrboda Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 4:34 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I'd be a hypocrite only if I viewed all WVs the same.  But I don't.

For example, it isn't hypocritical to not want the views of pedophiles enacted in society.

As for freewill, I don't thinknit exists, so that applies equally to all.

I am totally ethnocentric, and openly so, in that I feel/think some things are more conducive to civilisational progress than others.  Science is better than superstition, law is better than anarchy, non-rape better than rape.  You may see things differently, that's expected.  I only choose to fight for what I hold to be true.  I expect others will do the same.  Its not hypocritical to think one's opinion the best.

No, but it is hypocritical for you to want other people who are doing the same thing you are doing, fighting for what they feel is best, to be treated differently than you want to be treated. You want to be allowed free reign for views influenced by your rationalism, but no such freedom for people acting out of religious belief. So what you've said here is just bullshit. You don't want to treat others the same way that you want to be treated.

No. I want everyone to be treated exactly the same - according to my standard.

Otherwise to have laws against any behaviour would be hypocrisy.

(August 29, 2023 at 11:11 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 4:34 pm)FrustratedFool Wrote: I'd be a hypocrite only if I viewed all WVs the same.  But I don't.

So special pleading instead.

If that's what believing you are right and others wrong is, yes. I think murder is wrong,some don't. I guess I treat my view as superior to theirs.

(August 30, 2023 at 12:09 am)FrustratedFool Wrote:

(August 29, 2023 at 11:11 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: So special pleading instead.

If that's what believing you are right and others wrong is, yes.  I think murder is wrong,some don't.  I guess I treat my view as superior to theirs.

"Murder is wrong" is not a world-view, it's simply something people who don't like dying feel. That's like the overwhelming majority of all humans who have ever lived. Congratulations -- here, have a cookie.

Meanwhile, you'd disparage religious folk for putting their faith into their politics, while you see no problem with putting your lack of faith into your politics. So yes, it's either special pleading, or rank hypocrisy, as Danu pointed out.

Murder can easily be part of a WV.

Yes, I believe putting a religious WV into political action is bad for humanity. I believe lots of things are bad for humanity and would rather they didn't exist.

I don't see any hypocrisy in my view, I'm consistent and live according to my values, which, I grant is easy when my key value here is 'my view is right'.

As for special pleading, yes, I've already agreed I treat my view differently to others. But that's exactly the same as everyone. I think X bad and shouldn't be in society. Only difference is what X is. I accept that is a form of special pleading (amongst other things). It means nothing.

(August 30, 2023 at 12:05 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Most of Europe has hatespeech laws.  Seems to work OK.

Might want to look into AfD or Marine LePen, Poland as well. Doesn't seem to suppress these feelings.

True, there's more work to be done to eradicate bad thinking.

However, by protecting certain groups, like gays for example, both from discrimination and hatespeech, I think society has moved forward in a good direction.

It's hard to argue a counterfactual - would it have been worse or better without hatespeech laws? Impossible to say.

My WV, in this case the acceptance that people are easily manipulated and aren't free agents, informs my political views. I stopped being a freespech extremist and moved towards the European liberal socialist model of harm reduction.

What is your worldview?

(August 30, 2023 at 2:45 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: I don't see any hypocrisy in my view, I'm consistent and live according to my values, which, I grant is easy when my key value here is 'my view is right'.

Your hypocrisy -- or special pleading, pick your poison -- is in not understanding that others who disagree with you feel their own views are equally right.

If your "key value" is my view is right, well, that's a cudgel that could well be (and is!) wielded against you as well. And who would you be to complain? After all, it's your own ethic, plainly stated.

It's surprising to me that an LGBTQ+ person wouldn't understand the dangers of appealing to personal morality in running a society. Is the abyss gazing into you?

No, you misunderstand.

My key value here isn't people who strongly feel their own view is right are ok to have their view, it's that my view specifically held by me only is right. That can't be wielded against me nor can I be hypocritical with such a view. Special pleading I already admitted to, and dismissed as irrelevant.

I'm not appealing to personal morality. I saying X is right, society should be based on X not Y. There is no appeal to anything except my own opinion.