Well something had to have always been, it seems.

If God is eternal, then unless He created time before space-time (?) then wouldn't the universe always have been eternally co-existant with Him, even though He would be the logical though not temporal cause?

Anyway, a god has more issues and complexities and arguments against than an eternal.universe. And it wouldntmatter much regardless.

(September 29, 2023 at 8:29 am)Ahriman Wrote:

(September 29, 2023 at 8:24 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: What difference would it make?
I lean towards the liklihood of the universe being a brute fact that has always been, but I don't really know of course.

It really doesn't make sense for the universe to have always been.

Because it doesn't make sense to you it must be false? Dunning-Kruger much?

It was no one, I saw him do it.
It was caused by an over consumption Tacos.

(September 29, 2023 at 8:37 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Well something had to have always been, it seems.

If God is eternal, then unless He created time before space-time (?) then wouldn't the universe always have been eternally co-existant with Him, even though He would be the logical though not temporal cause?

Anyway, a god has more issues and complexities and arguments against than an eternal.universe.  And it wouldntmatter much regardless.

That's because the concept of God is more complex than the concept of an eternal universe.

(September 29, 2023 at 8:20 am)Ahriman Wrote:

(September 29, 2023 at 7:28 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: You haven't yet demonstrated that, as I pointed out elsewhere.

People have been doing it for thousands of years, and here we still are.

Which, as I've already pointed out in the same other thread, is not the same thing. I'm not interested in your sloppy thinking, or your recycled humbug.

(September 29, 2023 at 9:18 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(September 29, 2023 at 8:20 am)Ahriman Wrote: People have been doing it for thousands of years, and here we still are.

Which, as I've already pointed out in the same other thread, is not the same thing. I'm not interested in your sloppy thinking, or your recycled humbug.

You don't think religion's consistent guidelines for behavior and powerful messages that speak to the heart of many humans, both of which helped humanity survive for thousands of years, are beneficial for people? Or do you just not think they're beneficial, anymore?

If God is a more complex hypothesis, then it has to shoulder an even greater burden in providing sufficient warrant for assent. Occams razor lies in wait, otherwise.

Yeah, giving up is always the best way to motivate yourself to complete a task.

(September 29, 2023 at 9:28 am)Ahriman Wrote:

(September 29, 2023 at 9:18 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Which, as I've already pointed out in the same other thread, is not the same thing. I'm not interested in your sloppy thinking, or your recycled humbug.

You don't think religion's consistent guidelines for behavior and powerful messages that speak to the heart of many humans, both of which helped humanity survive for thousands of years, are beneficial for people? Or do you just not think they're beneficial, anymore?

Religion is harmful because it presents a false concept of reality that is untestable and unverifiable. All morality is cultural. History makes this obvious.

(September 29, 2023 at 9:41 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: If God is a more complex hypothesis, then it has to shoulder an even greater burden in providing sufficient warrant for assent.  Occams razor lies in wait, otherwise.

Aquinas already through of that.  He asserts God's absolute simplicity.


Summa I:3,7 Reply to Objection 2. With us composite things are better than simple things, because the perfections of created goodness cannot be found in one simple thing, but in many things. But the perfection of divine goodness is found in one simple thing

God performs intelligent design of seven million species, listens to a billion prayers every night and decides which ones to answer, but he is simple.