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Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
#61
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 8:31 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(October 3, 2023 at 8:26 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: That strikes me as a research project you should undertake, since it isn’t really a reasonable request.

There actually are polls of scholars on the subject.

Polls of scholars and five bucks'll getcha something small to drink at Starbucks.  I'm looking for arguments of scholars, backed by evidence.
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#62
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 8:47 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:
(October 3, 2023 at 8:31 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: There actually are polls of scholars on the subject.

Polls of scholars and five bucks'll getcha something small to drink at Starbucks.  I'm looking for arguments of scholars, backed by evidence.

Good for you. I really don't care what you're looking for.
What, no Bible quotes.

So YOU have objective evidence of consensus ?
We're not talking about arguments. HE as his argument claimed "consensus".
So far I've seen evidence of none.
Do try to stay on topic, or start your own.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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#63
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 9:01 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(October 3, 2023 at 8:47 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: Polls of scholars and five bucks'll getcha something small to drink at Starbucks.  I'm looking for arguments of scholars, backed by evidence.

Good for you. I really don't care what you're looking for.

Roger, out.
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#64
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
This is how it started:

(October 1, 2023 at 11:49 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(October 1, 2023 at 9:48 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: I am going with what the NT scholars say here. Evidence (assuming you agree with a lenient sense of the term in this context) would have to be the seven or so authentic epistles written in his name, the ones deemed by scholars as authentic upon analysis as opposed to the other ones written in his name that are either debatable or clearly not the original Paul's work, which appear to show that he was quite a high status figure among the first century Christians (i.e., believers in Christ).

On the other hand, there is a lack of evidence to suggest there wasn't really such a Paul in the first place and that this was all made up later on.

So all there is, is your "consensus of scholars". They are no doubt, all "Christians". 
What non-Christians *scholars* studied an historical Paul ?
Are there any historical mentions of a "Paul" or "Saul" in any secular sources ?

Note what I said exactly, and note how Bucky chooses to address this, by getting hung up on consensus rather than on the relevant points. The guy's an arrogant asshole trying to harrass me with a ridiculous demand based on just a part of what I actually said. I didn't even say the word "consensus" first, he did. I'm taking a look at his wall of text now to see if there's anything there that actually addresses what I'm interested in, and it's not all a bunch of red herrings.
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#65
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 9:18 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: This is how it started:

(October 1, 2023 at 11:49 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote: So all there is, is your "consensus of scholars". They are no doubt, all "Christians". 
What non-Christians *scholars* studied an historical Paul ?
Are there any historical mentions of a "Paul" or "Saul" in any secular sources ?

Note what I said exactly, and note how Bucky chooses to address this, by getting hung up on consensus rather than on the relevant points. The guy's an arrogant asshole trying to harrass me with a ridiculous demand based on just a part of what I actually said. I didn't even say the word "consensus" first, he did. I'm taking a look at his wall of text now to see if there's anything there that actually addresses what I'm interested in, and it's not all a bunch of red herrings.

I suppose he's frustrated.  You checked him at every point.  Called him on the argument from silence.  Invoked the principle of parsimony (aka Ockham's Razor)...as in, why would someone try to forge an unknown author named Paul?  So he fell back on the same dodge we get from the Jesus mythicists, that even secular historicists are in the pay of Big Christianity.  Truth is, Christianity is really Paulianity, and religions don't just fall out of the sky or evolve like languages.  There's a Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard somewhere that starts the damn thing.
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#66
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 9:29 pm)LinuxGal Wrote:
(October 3, 2023 at 9:18 pm)GrandizerII Wrote: This is how it started:


Note what I said exactly, and note how Bucky chooses to address this, by getting hung up on consensus rather than on the relevant points. The guy's an arrogant asshole trying to harrass me with a ridiculous demand based on just a part of what I actually said. I didn't even say the word "consensus" first, he did. I'm taking a look at his wall of text now to see if there's anything there that actually addresses what I'm interested in, and it's not all a bunch of red herrings.

I suppose he's frustrated.  You checked him at every point.  Called him on the argument from silence.  Invoked the principle of parsimony (aka Ockham's Razor)...as in, why would someone try to forge an unknown author named Paul?  So he fell back on the same dodge we get from the Jesus mythicists, that even secular historicists are in the pay of Big Christianity.  Truth is, Christianity is really Paulianity, and religions don't just fall out of the sky or evolve like languages.  There's a Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard somewhere that starts the damn thing.

You are flattering me too much here, and I like it, lol.

And yes, that's a great point you make here.
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#67
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 9:29 pm)LinuxGal Wrote: Invoked the principle of parsimony (aka Ockham's Razor)...as in, why would someone try to forge an unknown author named Paul? 

Who knows, but we know that happened whether paul was a real boy or not.... so?  As I mentioned before, the parsimonious answer for the character in magic book may not, actually, be a real boy.  Rather, a real church with real needs - regardless of whether there were ever any real boy.

Similarly, religions do fall out of the sky, quite literally in the case of a religion we watched form in recent history.

Lay the issue of historicity aside for a moment, as we'll simply assume there was a historical paul. The religion still "fell out of the sky". It was no one persons creation, not even the granted historical paul in magic book - which is certainly not, according to The Scholarly Consensus....The Historical Person of Paul. Unknown authors still forged books in pauls name. This, not pauls historicity, is why these are poor arguments. They're known counterfactuals.

These issues have been known and alot of ink has been spilt on them for over a century. Thus, it's grandstanding and not debating, imo, to pretend that mythicists are nuts - just because they agree with the consensus -about the character in magic book- but choose not to use the negotiated language of jesus nuts. Put another way, even the people who hold to a historic paul can (and often do) acknowledge all of this, and say..like bart ehrman is famous for with jesus..that even so, they still think there was some real boy that we know absolutely nothing about because of the circumstances of history and religious development. Let it sink in.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#68
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
(October 3, 2023 at 8:18 pm)Bucky Ball Wrote:


Alright, so I've just gone through all this text, but not sure I understood all key points here. What is the takeaway exactly? What is the relevance exactly to what we've been arguing about here? Or is this just sharing something from what you previously wrote up for a lecture or something that you thought would be an interesting read? Was Saul of Tarsus real or not?

Off-topic, I didn't understand what your issue was with Thomas being one of the "Twelve"? If there were 11 in the room, and Thomas was away, what's the problem exactly here? Nevermind, I see what you mean. 11 at that point, as in Paul wasn't an item then. Still, there were 12 at that point, per "John", and Paul is overlooked/ignored there. ETA: Also, forgot about Judas.
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#69
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
A more illuminating question might be whether Saul of Tarsus and Historical Paul are the same person. Saul is from the authentic letters. Paul is from acts...which is considered by The Scholarly Consensus to be ahistoric, to put it mildly.

So when we ask whether Paul was historical, are we asking whether there was ever any real boy named saul, a persecuter from nothereistan who had a moment on a road and was changed into paul? In a word. No. That paul is not the historical paul. That came later, by including stories from old magic book.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#70
RE: Why are Paul's writings in the Bible?
*and about that, I'd actually lean to the character in acts bearing more resemblance to the actual man if we're assuming historicity. Especially if we assume that "authentic paul" are his own claims. Authentic paul was a serial fabricator and unreliable narrator, you can't trust a word he says about himself.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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