So far only Nudger has answered the "drinking water" question properly. Yes, of course drinking water is objectively important, only a complete idiot would try to say that it isn't.

I may not have answered it correctly, but I did answer it objectively. As it so happens, only objective claims can be wrong in-fact. There's no getting yum or yuck wrong. Getting the details of whatever we happen to believe wrong is, I suppose possible, but not plausible. If you don't know what your society says you just weren't listening. They're definitely saying something.

It's just that last bit of +, that we await a new word for, that could even get any of this...rightly...or wrongly....

(November 28, 2023 at 3:47 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

(November 28, 2023 at 9:14 am)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: I can't really see why anything is important without god.???

why should i bother with anything.??

What conclusions have you come to.

Imagine that you could be convinced, in your heart of hearts, that God didn’t exist. Would you offer food to a starving child? Would you hold a door open for an elderly person? Would you cry at the funeral of a beloved friend?

Virtue is its own reward.

Boru

I'd have problems justifying anything like that that i was doing.

It would likely create a split in me that i'd have to resolve.  

A contradiction.  I guess i'd open myself up to the spiritual stuff and likely have to reexamine my convictions.

(November 28, 2023 at 6:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If you do good (or refrain from doing evil) solely on the hope of eternal reward or the fear of eternal punishment, you aren’t a good person - you’re the victim of a protection racket.

Boru

If you think there is something outside this universe that is worthy of your greatest gifts - then you strive for ideals.

God - i worth my best effort (even though my best effort sucks)

and - some might find this weird - but, we are partly in agreement - fear is not a great motivation.  Of course - your growth has to start somewhere, so you'd hope someone would outgrow fear motives and look to their dreams and values for motivation.

(November 28, 2023 at 7:23 pm)Astreja Wrote: Our perception that they are important, and our decision to treat them as if they're important.

I think so too.  they are about as important as we make them (if there is no god).

(November 28, 2023 at 11:54 pm)Harry Haller Wrote: Why should there be questions about "God" in the first place?  If you accept the premise that "God" is the perfect, omnipotent, creator of the Universe, then why should important questions about what God is and what God wants exist? It seems that it should be self-evident and non-refutable.  

Instead of this perfect clarity, we have no practical evidence of existence and thousands of variations on the message.

Id really not expect it to be self evident.  

an allperfect, allpowerful, allfather being - that clearly visible and understandable with my eyes??

I think you'd have to grow a lot to make sense of a being like that.

In fact, I think that's what this life and eternity is about - revelation, growth, harmonisation, revelation, growth, harmonisation and so on ....

That makes things important beyond just my say so.

(November 30, 2023 at 6:21 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote:

(November 28, 2023 at 6:49 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If you do good (or refrain from doing evil) solely on the hope of eternal reward or the fear of eternal punishment, you aren’t a good person - you’re the victim of a protection racket.

Boru

If you think there is something outside this universe that is worthy of your greatest gifts - then you strive for ideals.

God - i worth my best effort (even though my best effort sucks)

and - some might find this weird - but, we are partly in agreement - fear is not a great motivation.  Of course - your growth has to start somewhere, so you'd hope someone would outgrow fear motives and look to their dreams and values for motivation.

If you think there is nothing outside this universe that is worthy of your greatest gift, you STILL strive for ideals. Why is God necessary for that?

Why is God, the author of all misery, evil, and calamity, worthy of your best effort?

Fear is actually a fantastic motivator. The trouble with your particular brand of godism is that the fear motivation is all out of proportion.

What ‘dreams and values’ motivate you, personally? You said earlier that, without God, you wouldn’t care about anything. Your motivation appears to be going to Eternal Happy Funland. Seems kind of a selfish way to live your life.

Boru

(November 30, 2023 at 6:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: If you think there is nothing outside this universe that is worthy of your greatest gift, you STILL strive for ideals. Why is God necessary for that?

Ideals trapped in a universe that has no real meaningful expression. You do good stuff, and then it's over. the deed dies out and eventually float off into nothingness and the universe dies with all your actions and everything you do.

Why bother? (I hate to say the above paragraph, and it's not what i think really happens. I thing your goodness lives on and is recorded. it transforms into something meaningful - and never dies)

(November 30, 2023 at 6:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why is God, the author of all misery, evil, and calamity, worthy of your best effort?

I think god has attributes that are worthy - like goodness, love, truth, beauty, personality, courage. They shine out of god.

(November 30, 2023 at 6:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Fear is actually a fantastic motivator. The trouble with your particular brand of godism is that the fear motivation is all out of proportion.

Not out of proportion.
Its a poor reason to do good things. "Why do you love me?". "Because i'm afraid of what you'll do if i don't love you".
fear needs to be kept in it's place - keeping you alive in the biological sense. it has no business in the spiritual matters though.

(November 30, 2023 at 6:36 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What ‘dreams and values’ motivate you, personally? You said earlier that, without God, you wouldn’t care about anything. Your motivation appears to be going to Eternal Happy Funland. Seems kind of a selfish way to live your life.

Happy funland is a giant family, we are all family, brothers and sisters with god as our father. greater and greater challenges and growth, helping eachother find the father.

Are these things worthy because they shine out of gods wherever, or do they shine out of gods wherever because they are worthy?

(November 30, 2023 at 7:09 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Are these things worthy because they shine out of gods wherever, or do they shine out of gods wherever because they are worthy?

Probably the first one. That would make god the bestower

Btw - we are out of my pay grade here - I can give my worldview - but not account for every little detail