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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 2:02 am
Belacqua Wrote:The God that Hitchens describes, and that people tend to argue against on this forum, is certainly a tyrant. As far as I can tell, this view of God comes from a literal reading of the Old Testament and some fire-and-brimstone type preachers.
The God of Plato, of Aristotle, of Augustine, of Dante, and many etc., is not at all a tyrant or authority figure.
Augustine and Dante did believe in an authoritarian god. Dante wrote about Hell where god tortures his "enemies" forever which is as authoritarian as it gets, while Augustine was also a believer in hell and in killing heretics.
While Plato and Aristotle believed in Greek gods which seem more reasonable since they did not have hell. And, if we are talking about "what atheists think about them", then they seem to be more inclined to them, like Stephen Fry explains in this clip
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 3:28 am
(This post was last modified: December 7, 2023 at 3:31 am by Deesse23.)
(December 5, 2023 at 8:04 pm)Belacqua Wrote: The God of Plato, of Aristotle, of Augustine, of Dante, and many etc., is not at all a tyrant or authority figure.
Please describe the various punishments for sin, in detail, for each cirlce of Dantes Inferno.
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 4:27 am
And the God of Augustine predestines billions to eternal torture for the disobedience of their ancestor.
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 4:33 am
Christianity is in many ways a horrific cult of human sacrifice to appease a tyrannical narcissist.
Bare theism gets rid of that aspect, but instead either posits a deistic parent who coldly abandons his children, or else an arbitrary and distant dictator who looks upon the suffering he permitted and dispenses occasional favours to his chosen when the fancy takes him.
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 6:48 am
(December 7, 2023 at 4:33 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: either posits a deistic parent who coldly abandons his children, or else an arbitrary and distant dictator who looks upon the suffering he permitted and dispenses occasional favours to his chosen when the fancy takes him.
These are not the only choices.
Classical theism, which has deep roots in Plato, is very different.
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/09...heism.html
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 7:00 am
(This post was last modified: December 7, 2023 at 7:04 am by FrustratedFool.)
The impassable unchanging God is likely incoherent, or at best cold and amoral.
Though it's always fun listening to Bentley-Hart pontificate 
Though personally, I always found the highly emotional deity of Open Theism more palatable.
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 10:00 am
(This post was last modified: December 7, 2023 at 10:04 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Different in many ways, sure, but not in it's authoritarianism. Plato was, himself, an authoritarian.
Ironically, it's only because our attitudes towards authoritarianism have changed that god botherers mount doomed arguments against their god as an authoritarian. They were..and to a large extent remain... completely satisfied with theisms inherent authoritarian claims. They just realize it's bad pr.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 10:24 am
(December 7, 2023 at 4:33 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: Christianity is in many ways a horrific cult of human sacrifice to appease a tyrannical narcissist.
Bare theism gets rid of that aspect, but instead either posits a deistic parent who coldly abandons his children, or else an arbitrary and distant dictator who looks upon the suffering he permitted and dispenses occasional favours to his chosen when the fancy takes him.
The former creates the latter.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 11:27 am
(This post was last modified: December 7, 2023 at 11:30 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It also muddies the distinction between deism and theism. Deism is not "bare theism". Bare theism rejects the impersonal and non interventionist god of deism. It positively asserts a personal and intervening god - though the specific content of that intervention varies between different theistic religions.
That intervention either often..or always, takes the form of an authoritarian proposition. We appeal to gods -as- a personal and intervening authority, the very moment we posit theistic gods. It should be no surprise, then, that theism and authoritarianism are strongly correlated everywhere we care to look. Theists, every single theist, is telling us that there -is- at least one authority, and that this authority is their god.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Do you think God is authoritarian?
December 7, 2023 at 1:54 pm
(December 7, 2023 at 6:48 am)Belacqua Wrote: (December 7, 2023 at 4:33 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: either posits a deistic parent who coldly abandons his children, or else an arbitrary and distant dictator who looks upon the suffering he permitted and dispenses occasional favours to his chosen when the fancy takes him.
These are not the only choices.
Classical theism, which has deep roots in Plato, is very different.
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010/09...heism.html
If classical theism was the theism of the majority of American Christians, much would be different.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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