Hi Bel. Ok. Let them research and see whether or not the Universe had a beginning.

Open Source Wikipedia says: "According to the Big Bang models, the universe at the beginning was very hot and very compact, and since then it has been expanding and cooling." The Universe certainly had a beginning. I am aware for a while they said it was around 13.5 BN years ago, now they're saying somewhere double of that, around 26 BN years ago. So be it. What existed 30 BN years ago, then?

If nothing, then ex nihil, nihil fit, which means, out of nothing, nothing comes, then even now, nothing would exist.
Therefore, it isn't true that nothing ever existed. What is true is that, nothing material existed then. And therefore ...

Saint Thomas Aquinas: "Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing."

Neil Wrote:BTW I don't identify as atheist; I'm non-religious.

Ok, then I'll call you non-religious rather than Atheist now that you told me.

But whether you identify as Atheist, or Non-Religious, or a Non-Man, or a "Birthing Person", or whatever else Liberal Atheist Godless Woke Rubbish they're coming up these days is irrelevant to the ULTIMATE QUESTION: WILL YOU GET INTO HEAVEN AND ENJOY ETERNAL HAPPINESS WITH CHRIST OR NOT?

We hope you will, and therefore we are telling you the Truth we know for sure. Yes, Virginia, there is a God, His Name is Jesus, there is a Heaven etc.

Wake up already, from the trance your Atheist Apostate Masters like that Evil Wretch Karl Marx want you to live under. There is a God, Marx was wrong.

(January 6, 2024 at 5:47 am)JJoseph Wrote:

(January 6, 2024 at 4:46 am)neil Wrote: I don't believe the universe began to exist.

Ok, then. Question to you: What existed 100 BN years ago?

a) Nothing. And if so, then everything came from nothing.
b) Nothing material, i.e. an Immaterial Spiritual Being.

Atheism is forced to hold on to a. Defenders of Kalam say b.

We know the Universe began to exist because we know its finite age.

Whereas the God of Christian Revelation has always declared Himself Eternal.

Brian Wrote:It is not obvious that premises 1 and 2 true are correct, therefore conclusions 3 and 4 are invalid.

Insufficient. It's insufficient for Atheists to claim "it's not obvious". They must show that the negation of 1 or 2 are more probably true, and then construct a logical argument of their own, if they want us to believe the Universe either did not begin to exist, or that what begins to exist pops into being uncaused.

Dr. Craig, the Athanasius of this age against the Arianism that is Atheism, has a put a lot of thought into this argument he popularized, and it stands imho.

Quote:OK, so what caused the "Eternal Creator of the Universe" to exist? and if he/it "always existed why can't the universe have always existed?

Premise 1 of Kalam is, What begins to exist has a Cause. The Converse of it is, whatever was uncaused exists eternally. Therefore, it is only creatures, that began to exist, that have a Cause. The Eternal Creator does not need to, and there is no circularity in Kalam, but the mere converse of it applies to God.

Quote:We don't know (yet) what created the universe

Well, maybe in 20 or 25 years you will know that God created it, but speed it up already; we know, God is waiting, and life is passing you by. Everyone who wants to go to Heaven must get this Question right and live accordingly so that he or she may indeed go to that Father's House with many Mansions and live eternally there happily forever and ever. Amen. In Jesus' Name.

Which god created it and how do you know? I assume you are thinking about the christian god, but what about the thousands of other gods? Zeus, Odin, Neptune etc... I'm sure that their believers thought that they were as real as you think your god is.
I still see zero evidence for any kind of god or the existence of a heaven or hell, just people who can't face the fact that one day they will no longer exist and need a crutch to help themselves feel better about it.

Sophism and Strawman.

4000 years ago, to the amazement of a world steeped in pagan polytheism, idolatry, infanticide and child sacrifice, the Lord God Jehovah informed His beloved Patriarch Abraham, that there was Only One Almighty Eternal and Supreme God. Mankind had known this Truth at first, but then fallen into grave error on the subject, misled by false teachers who did not love humanity, or indeed ignorant souls who did not know the way back to God.

Therefore, the Lord Himself had to intervene, and intervene He did, by telling humanity the Truth there was One God Almighty, while others thought there were many gods. Today, after the time of Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, with Dr. Craig and others developing Arguments that show there is One Supreme Creator God of the Whole Universe, we know only the Monotheistic Religions can be right: basically, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Further arguments, like the Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, can eliminate both Judaism and Islam, and show Jesus Christ is the Truth.

Time is running out and the clock is ticking. What if, God forbid, death overtakes one of you? Then, for all eternity, it will be too late to reverse your decision. Recognize the Precious and Priceless Grace God has given you, and is giving you Hour and Hour every day, that you decide for Him and be saved.

Which god did the creating? Zeus? Odin? Vishnu? Tezcatlipoca? Itzamná? Enki? or any of the other gods that have been forgotten by time?

(January 6, 2024 at 5:47 am)JJoseph Wrote:

(January 6, 2024 at 4:46 am)neil Wrote: I don't believe the universe began to exist.

Ok, then. Question to you: What existed 100 BN years ago?

a) Nothing. And if so, then everything came from nothing.
b) Nothing material, i.e. an Immaterial Spiritual Being.

Atheism is forced to hold on to a. Defenders of Kalam say b.

We know the Universe began to exist because we know its finite age.

Whereas the God of Christian Revelation has always declared Himself Eternal.

Brian Wrote:It is not obvious that premises 1 and 2 true are correct, therefore conclusions 3 and 4 are invalid.

Insufficient. It's insufficient for Atheists to claim "it's not obvious". They must show that the negation of 1 or 2 are more probably true, and then construct a logical argument of their own, if they want us to believe the Universe either did not begin to exist, or that what begins to exist pops into being uncaused.

Dr. Craig, the Athanasius of this age against the Arianism that is Atheism, has a put a lot of thought into this argument he popularized, and it stands imho.

You have it exactly backwards. Since you are the one promoting the argument, the onus is on you to demonstrate that the premise(s) are true, or at least reasonable, in order for the conclusions to be valid. Since there is evidence for acausality (radioactive decay, subatomic particles), you haven’t done so.

Implying that the argument is valid - even in part - because Craig thinks well of it is fallacious (argument from authority).

Boru

(January 6, 2024 at 6:08 am)JJoseph Wrote:

Neil Wrote:BTW I don't identify as atheist; I'm non-religious.

Ok, then I'll call you non-religious rather than Atheist now that you told me.

But whether you identify as Atheist, or Non-Religious, or a Non-Man, or a "Birthing Person", or whatever else Liberal Atheist Godless Woke Rubbish they're coming up these days is irrelevant to the ULTIMATE QUESTION: WILL YOU GET INTO HEAVEN AND ENJOY ETERNAL HAPPINESS WITH CHRIST OR NOT?

We hope you will, and therefore we are telling you the Truth we know for sure. Yes, Virginia, there is a God, His Name is Jesus, there is a Heaven etc.

Wake up already, from the trance your Atheist Apostate Masters like that Evil Wretch Karl Marx want you to live under. There is a God, Marx was wrong.

LOL - dude, I'm libertarian (centrist, if you want to get more specific - I'm no ancap), and "liberal" in the classical sense of the definition.

I don't believe rights come from any deities; I think they come people agreeing to have a system of government that doesn't put the individual before the collective, and also doesn't put the collective before the individual; I also think that it's individuals keeping and bearing arms that backs up rights.

(January 6, 2024 at 6:08 am)JJoseph Wrote:

Neil Wrote:BTW I don't identify as atheist; I'm non-religious.

Ok, then I'll call you non-religious rather than Atheist now that you told me.

But whether you identify as Atheist, or Non-Religious, or a Non-Man, or a "Birthing Person", or whatever else Liberal Atheist Godless Woke Rubbish they're coming up these days is irrelevant to the ULTIMATE QUESTION: WILL YOU GET INTO HEAVEN AND ENJOY ETERNAL HAPPINESS WITH CHRIST OR NOT?

We hope you will, and therefore we are telling you the Truth we know for sure. Yes, Virginia, there is a God, His Name is Jesus, there is a Heaven etc.

Wake up already, from the trance your Atheist Apostate Masters like that Evil Wretch Karl Marx want you to live under. There is a God, Marx was wrong.

Aw, and you started out so well, too.

Boru

(January 6, 2024 at 6:05 am)JJoseph Wrote: Hi Bel. Ok. Let them research and see whether or not the Universe had a beginning.

Open Source Wikipedia says: "According to the Big Bang models, the universe at the beginning was very hot and very compact, and since then it has been expanding and cooling." The Universe certainly had a beginning. I am aware for a while they said it was around 13.5 BN years ago, now they're saying somewhere double of that, around 26 BN years ago. So be it. What existed 30 BN years ago, then?

If nothing, then ex nihil, nihil fit, which means, out of nothing, nothing comes, then even now, nothing would exist.
Therefore, it isn't true that nothing ever existed. What is true is that, nothing material existed then. And therefore ...

Saint Thomas Aquinas: "Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing."

Yeah, the physicists I've read on the topic seem ambiguous at best. When they say that "something" has come from "nothing," it always turns out that the "nothing" was really something. For example, the laws of nature were just hanging around in such a way that the Big Bang could get up and running. But to me, the laws of nature are something, not nothing. Krauss's book is really bad on this. "We don't know" seems like the best conclusion so far.

So when people talk about the Big Bang as the beginning, it may be that they mean the beginning of the universe as it now exists -- not the beginning of everything. Which doesn't rule out a God-like creator. Though of course none of the science-only people will be happy with that explanation. 

Part of the problem with discussions like this is that so many people think of God as being thing-like. A physically existing thing which we could find if we knew where to look, which ought to be detectable by science. Of course the God of the A/T version is nothing like that. (I don't know what Kalam posits -- as you know it has supporters among both Christians and Muslims, but I don't think Kalam alone is sufficient to get us to the God of the Bible or of the Koran.)

(January 6, 2024 at 4:23 am)JJoseph Wrote: Step 2: The Universe began to exist. 

How do you know?

(January 6, 2024 at 4:23 am)JJoseph Wrote: This step is also proven by mathematical logic, has empirical confirmation in the Big Bang Theory etc.

Wrong
If the BBT is right the universe existed for all of time.

(January 6, 2024 at 4:23 am)JJoseph Wrote: Step 3: Therefore, the Universe has a cause.

And that cause would be? ....i bet your particular version of christian god. Am i remotely correct in this assumption?

(January 6, 2024 at 4:23 am)JJoseph Wrote: The conclusion logically follows from the preceding premises. Dr. Craig occasionally goes for a further step.

Craig is dishonest from the get go, and admitted to his motivated reasoning in a video.

(January 6, 2024 at 4:23 am)JJoseph Wrote: Step 4: Therefore, an Eternal Creator of the Universe exists, that brought the Universe into existence from nothing.

And now YOU are being dishonest. This step is not part of eh Kalam, isnt it?
Does your creator begin to exist by the way? No? how do you know?