(November 21, 2024 at 1:58 am)Paleophyte Wrote: The objective evidence conclusively demonstrates that human identity is more complex than the set of chromosomes that you're born with.

Yes, this is certainly true. People are complicated and there's a great deal science can't yet explain. 

Until such time as we have objective evidence for what gender a person is, we will believe their subjective testimony without objective evidence. This is as it should be.

(November 21, 2024 at 5:38 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 1:58 am)Paleophyte Wrote: The objective evidence conclusively demonstrates that human identity is more complex than the set of chromosomes that you're born with.

Until such time as we have objective evidence for what gender a person is, we will believe their subjective testimony without objective evidence. 

There is a clear diagnosis for gender dysphoria included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.

So it's not a purely subjective claim, anymore than someone claiming to be gay is a purely subjective claim, it can be objectively tested, and homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder until fairly recently, hopefully this will change for gender dysphoria as well, but its existence is objectively evidenced.

(November 21, 2024 at 6:15 am)Sheldon Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 5:38 am)Belacqua Wrote: Until such time as we have objective evidence for what gender a person is, we will believe their subjective testimony without objective evidence. 

There is a clear diagnosis for gender dysphoria included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.

So it's not a purely subjective claim, anymore than someone claiming to be gay is a purely subjective claim, it can be objectively tested, and homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder until fairly recently, hopefully this will change for gender dysphoria as well, but its existence is objectively evidenced.

Dysphoria is not gender. It's a disorder. 

If a psychiatrist wanted to find objective evidence for a person's gender, what would she look for? Is this included in the DSM-5?

(November 21, 2024 at 6:15 am)Sheldon Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 5:38 am)Belacqua Wrote: Until such time as we have objective evidence for what gender a person is, we will believe their subjective testimony without objective evidence. 

There is a clear diagnosis for gender dysphoria included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.

So it's not a purely subjective claim, anymore than someone claiming to be gay is a purely subjective claim, it can be objectively tested, and homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder until fairly recently, hopefully this will change for gender dysphoria as well, but its existence is objectively evidenced.

Actually, it already has. According to the current version of the DSM-5 "It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder." The disorder that commonly arises in gender dysphoria is a result of the stress produced when a person's experienced gender doesn't match with societal and cultural expectations. Or in simpler terms, society is the problem and we're sorry that you need a therapist to deal with it.

(November 21, 2024 at 6:47 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 6:15 am)Sheldon Wrote: There is a clear diagnosis for gender dysphoria included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.

So it's not a purely subjective claim, anymore than someone claiming to be gay is a purely subjective claim, it can be objectively tested, and homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder until fairly recently, hopefully this will change for gender dysphoria as well, but its existence is objectively evidenced.

Dysphoria is not gender. It's a disorder. 

If a psychiatrist wanted to find objective evidence for a person's gender, what would she look for? Is this included in the DSM-5?

According to The APA Dictionary of Psychology:

"the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for different genders. In a human context, the distinction between gender and sex reflects the usage of these terms: Sex refers to the biological status of being male, female, or intersex, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of gender (i.e., masculinity, femininity, nonbinary, nonconforming, or other gender)."

So you'd want to look at the person's behavior, much like everything else that a psychiatrist or psychologist is likely to do. Or are you suggesting that a psychological diagnosis isn't objective?

(November 21, 2024 at 6:47 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 6:15 am)Sheldon Wrote: There is a clear diagnosis for gender dysphoria included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.

So it's not a purely subjective claim, anymore than someone claiming to be gay is a purely subjective claim, it can be objectively tested, and homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder until fairly recently, hopefully this will change for gender dysphoria as well, but its existence is objectively evidenced.

Dysphoria is not gender. It's a disorder. 

Dear oh dear but you are the  king of straw men, where di i remotely claim dysphoria was gender? 

Quote:If a psychiatrist wanted to find objective evidence for a person's gender, what would she look for? Is this included in the DSM-5?

I am not a psychiatrist, though I imagine the information is freely available of one wanted to find and study it. I'd be stunned to find out the classification was based solely on the subjective claim of the patient though, as you asserted.

(November 21, 2024 at 7:20 am)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 6:15 am)Sheldon Wrote: There is a clear diagnosis for gender dysphoria included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association.

So it's not a purely subjective claim, anymore than someone claiming to be gay is a purely subjective claim, it can be objectively tested, and homosexuality was also classified as a mental disorder until fairly recently, hopefully this will change for gender dysphoria as well, but its existence is objectively evidenced.

Actually, it already has. According to the current version of the DSM-5 "It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder." The disorder that commonly arises in gender dysphoria is a result of the stress produced when a person's experienced gender doesn't match with societal and cultural expectations. Or in simpler terms, society is the problem and we're sorry that you need a therapist to deal with it.

That's good to know. I'm glad that the professionals are coming around.

Psychiatry is notoriously subjective in its diagnoses. The fact that something can be a disorder one year and not one the next is a little troubling.

I know a psychiatrist in the US who works in a big hospital. One of her duties is to interview patients who are seeking gender reassignment surgery. Her job is NOT to determine what gender the person really is, but simply to say if the person is in a sufficiently rational and calm state of mind to make a big decision. After all, there are manic-depressives who can decide things in a manic phase which they wouldn't decide at other times. During the manic state it's dangerous for them to have access to a credit card, much less major surgery. 

She tells me that in a very small number of cases she has recommended that the person not be approved for the surgery yet. She has recommended a longer waiting period and further counseling. But she says that in every such case the patient has simply gone to a different psychiatrist and gotten the answer they want. So apparently even professional opinions of this type are not cut-and-dried, but include a large subjective element.

(November 21, 2024 at 7:32 am)Sheldon Wrote: Dear oh dear but you are the  king of straw men, where di i remotely claim dysphoria was gender? 

You didn't. I wasn't sure why you brought it up because it is a different question from determining gender.

(November 21, 2024 at 7:30 am)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 6:47 am)Belacqua Wrote: Dysphoria is not gender. It's a disorder. 

If a psychiatrist wanted to find objective evidence for a person's gender, what would she look for? Is this included in the DSM-5?

According to The APA Dictionary of Psychology:

"the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for different genders. In a human context, the distinction between gender and sex reflects the usage of these terms: Sex refers to the biological status of being male, female, or intersex, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of gender (i.e., masculinity, femininity, nonbinary, nonconforming, or other gender)."

So you'd want to look at the person's behavior, much like everything else that a psychiatrist or psychologist is likely to do. Or are you suggesting that a psychological diagnosis isn't objective?

If a person behaves in ways that are traditionally associated with being male, but reports that they are in fact female, what do we conclude? 

Do we even still believe that there are male ways to behave and female ways to behave? Isn't that outdated?

Yes, I believe that psychiatric diagnoses contain a very large subjective element. Psychiatrists can reach very different diagnoses concerning the same patient.

(November 21, 2024 at 7:30 am)Paleophyte Wrote:

(November 21, 2024 at 6:47 am)Belacqua Wrote: Dysphoria is not gender. It's a disorder. 

If a psychiatrist wanted to find objective evidence for a person's gender, what would she look for? Is this included in the DSM-5?

According to The APA Dictionary of Psychology:

"the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for different genders. In a human context, the distinction between gender and sex reflects the usage of these terms: Sex refers to the biological status of being male, female, or intersex, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of gender (i.e., masculinity, femininity, nonbinary, nonconforming, or other gender)."

So you'd want to look at the person's behavior, much like everything else that a psychiatrist or psychologist is likely to do. Or are you suggesting that a psychological diagnosis isn't objective?

Well he claimed that we only have the subjective claim of the patient, which isn't true of course.