(April 19, 2025 at 4:18 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: To be fair majority of politicians are liars (at least in Poland). This is why such strategy finds so easy purchase among people. Far right greatest strength is in deplorable state of mainstream politics.

The new vice-chair of the Democratic Party said yesterday that school shootings are the fault of democracy, and climate change issues can't be solved because of democracy. 

Then there's the problem that a lot of people voted for Trump, so it's clear that democracy doesn't work out so well sometimes. 

And of course many Trump supporters think that the US government has so completely failed to address their concerns that we need a Strong Man to take care of things -- a tough rude boy to cut through the resistance. 

When both parties are starting to make anti-democracy noises, it makes me wonder if things are about to change in a big way.

(April 19, 2025 at 4:29 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 19, 2025 at 4:18 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: To be fair majority of politicians are liars (at least in Poland). This is why such strategy finds so easy purchase among people. Far right greatest strength is in deplorable state of mainstream politics.

The new vice-chair of the Democratic Party said yesterday that school shootings are the fault of democracy, and climate change issues can't be solved because of democracy.

If he really said that then he is a clown and idiot. Uttering the words does not make them true though and the fact that he blames democracy for them makes him look like mental midget.

Quote:Then there's the problem that a lot of people voted for Trump, so it's clear that democracy doesn't work out so well sometimes.

Sure it doesn't, especially when it is subverted from inside i.e. like in this money is speech verdict. This however only means that democracy should be reformed to include stringent protection about money in politics and idiotic judges not done away with.

Quote:And of course many Trump supporters think that the US government has so completely failed to address their concerns that we need a Strong Man to take care of things -- a tough rude boy to cut through the resistance.

USA fails by many metrics (wealth disparity, imprisonment rate, support for israel genocidal actions) so trump supporters can be right in that gov failed them. Wanting strong man to save them however is nothing more than childishness and ignorance about fate of fascist regimes coupled with propaganda.

Quote:When both parties are starting to make anti-democracy noises, it makes me wonder if things are about to change in a big way.

Sliding into fascism is quite a big change.

(April 19, 2025 at 4:50 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: USA fails by many metrics (wealth disparity, imprisonment rate, support for israel genocidal actions) so trump supporters can be right in that gov failed them. Wanting strong man to save them however is nothing more than childishness and ignorance about fate of fascist regimes coupled with propaganda.

I frequently go back to the study done by professors at Princeton and Northwestern a few years ago, which compared polls of what people want with the actions taken by government. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

These researchers concluded that the will of the people has little or no effect on what government does. So if they're right, there is no democracy to lose.

What we should call the present system I'm not sure. Oligarchy, or maybe Inverted Totalitarianism. Anyway, Trump seems to me like just the extreme point (so far) of a trend that's been going on for a while now. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

(April 18, 2025 at 9:39 pm)Belacqua Wrote: The good news, I guess, is that you aren't really as cynical and hopeless as you say, if you still think that electing Dems is going to improve anything.

I fault people for even nominating Donald Trump, especially the second time after he showed his true colors.

Electing Democrats would have preserved our democracy and fought climate change, which were my two highest priorities as a voter. Other people no doubt had other priorities.

I don't know whether I would call my present state cynicism, although it does verge on hopelessness. I don't think it is entirely healthy, so I am looking for a few ways to reframe my perspectives. For instance, faulting human nature itself, rather than individuals or groups, is one way to come to terms with what I see as happening. The situations and individuals which I have mentioned in this context just pushed me into this state.

(April 19, 2025 at 5:32 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 19, 2025 at 4:50 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: USA fails by many metrics (wealth disparity, imprisonment rate, support for israel genocidal actions) so trump supporters can be right in that gov failed them. Wanting strong man to save them however is nothing more than childishness and ignorance about fate of fascist regimes coupled with propaganda.

I frequently go back to the study done by professors at Princeton and Northwestern a few years ago, which compared polls of what people want with the actions taken by government. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

These researchers concluded that the will of the people has little or no effect on what government does. So if they're right, there is no democracy to lose.

Not really. It's not that will of the people don't matter. It is will of poor people that does not matter (much). Also to be honest people get what they vote on - if they believe that some right wing clowns will make things easier for working class then they're simply deluded. It's like in Poland where people vote on neoliberals and then are surprised that they do neoliberal crap instead of things people allegedly wish for. But if people would really wish for x wouldn't they vote on someone else, who isn't known for hating x with a passion?

Quote:What we should call the present system I'm not sure. Oligarchy, or maybe Inverted Totalitarianism. Anyway, Trump seems to me like just the extreme point (so far) of a trend that's been going on for a while now. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

Illiberalism, autocracy, fascism... Label matters little.

(April 19, 2025 at 5:32 am)Belacqua Wrote: These researchers concluded that the will of the people has little or no effect on what government does. So if they're right, there is no democracy to lose.

One problem many voters fail to acknowledge is that the government can't solve all of our problems, no matter what politicians promise.

Also, a fair number of voters do get what they want from their representatives. It's just that in such a divided nation as the U.S., that group most likely can never be a majority.

In other words, our perceptions of what the government is doing for us and what is possible are likely askew. Such a lack of comprehension may well soon be corrected as we learn the hard way what government has actually been doing for us after Trump undermines it.

Our inability to correctly track cause and effect, because we are habituated or spoiled, is yet another problem with human nature.

In my opinion, it would help if more people understood history and human psychology better.

(April 19, 2025 at 5:51 am)Alan V Wrote:

(April 19, 2025 at 5:32 am)Belacqua Wrote: These researchers concluded that the will of the people has little or no effect on what government does. So if they're right, there is no democracy to lose.

One problem many voters fail to acknowledge is that the government can't solve all of our problems, no matter what politicians promise.

Also, a fair number of voters do get what they want from their representatives.  It's just that in such a divided nation as the U.S., that group most likely can never be a majority.  

In other words, our perceptions of what the government is doing for us and what is possible are likely askew.  Such a lack of comprehension may well soon be corrected as we learn the hard way what government has actually been doing for us after Trump undermines it.

Our inability to correctly track cause and effect, because we are habituated or spoiled, is yet another problem with human nature.

In my opinion, it would help if more people understood history and human psychology better.

Granted, perceptions are often skewed. 

The study I referred to gives its methodology, so it isn't simply a question of people's perceptions. You can check to see if you find the interpretation of the data persuasive. 

https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/idr.pdf

(April 19, 2025 at 5:58 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 19, 2025 at 5:51 am)Alan V Wrote: One problem many voters fail to acknowledge is that the government can't solve all of our problems, no matter what politicians promise.

Also, a fair number of voters do get what they want from their representatives.  It's just that in such a divided nation as the U.S., that group most likely can never be a majority.  

In other words, our perceptions of what the government is doing for us and what is possible are likely askew.  Such a lack of comprehension may well soon be corrected as we learn the hard way what government has actually been doing for us after Trump undermines it.

Our inability to correctly track cause and effect, because we are habituated or spoiled, is yet another problem with human nature.

In my opinion, it would help if more people understood history and human psychology better.

Granted, perceptions are often skewed. 

The study I referred to gives its methodology, so it isn't simply a question of people's perceptions. You can check to see if you find the interpretation of the data persuasive. 

https://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/idr.pdf

Issue is that people might not really support what they say they support or see it as nice to have but not trumping other factors. Supposedly many poor wants minimum wage to be raised. Does their voting reflect it? Do they vote on people who said "yes" to raising minimum wage when bill for it was presented (or for those who pushed for said bill themselves, depends on vagaries of country system I guess) or merely on people who promise raising it. Ye shall know them by their fruits is one of pathetically small list of biblical wisdom; if one votes for those who say instead on of voting on those who do then one shouldn't complain about not getting what one want.

In the end politicians promises are only worth as much as people will to held them accountable. If politicians are reelected despite breaking them how can public complain about not getting what it wants?

(April 19, 2025 at 4:25 am)Belacqua Wrote:

(April 18, 2025 at 10:51 am)Angrboda Wrote: From my personal experience, atheists like to think themselves more honest and straightforward than other people.

Whether they are is an open question that is not readily resolved by the rather partial accounting that we get online.

Remember Richard Dawkins? He used to be popular with atheists on line. 

He has come out as a transphobe

That's a gross over simplification. 

Quote: and a fan of Elon Musk. 

So is that. 

Quote:So there's at least one atheist in the world who is not on our team.

In general I just think it's a bad idea to emphasize the...In-group vs. out-group, that kind of thing. It leads to overly-easy judgments, 

An irony overload, alongside those sweeping comments about Dawkins. 

Quote:It may well be human nature to divide things up that way, but it's something we can guard against in our thinking. Each individual and each issue has to be taken on its individual merits.

Now that's just comedy gold, given you see unable stop using whataboutism in a thread about Trump.

Got my threads mixed up, my apologies, but it still whataboutism of course .

(April 19, 2025 at 6:07 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote: Issue is that people might not really support what they say they support or see it as nice to have but not trumping other factors. Supposedly many poor wants minimum wage to be raised. Does their voting reflect it? Do they vote on people who said "yes" to raising minimum wage when bill for it was presented (or for those who pushed for said bill themselves, depends on vagaries of country system I guess) or merely on people who promise raising it. Ye shall know them by their fruits is one of pathetically small list of biblical wisdom; if one votes for those who say instead on of voting on those who do then one shouldn't complain about not getting what one want.

In the end politicians promises are only worth as much as people will to held them accountable. If politicians are reelected despite breaking them how can public complain about not getting what it wants?

Yes, we all wish that voters were better informed. It would be nice if they could do the math themselves, and see through the lies. 

But they're up against about the most effective propaganda methods ever employed. And we're given very little choice. Bernie would have won, probably, but the Dems wouldn't let him get near the nomination. 

There's blame enough to go around. I think that leaders should be held accountable, too, but how does that work in practice, when we're given a choice of two lying (and much lied-about) miscreants? People only know what they're told, and neither the politicians nor the corporate media have any loyalty to the truth.