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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 18, 2025 at 8:51 pm
(May 18, 2025 at 8:14 pm)Paleophyte Wrote: (May 18, 2025 at 7:49 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: I think most people would agree with this. But, at least conceptually, I don't see how anything could be or exist without information. A simple stone, by its very existence, is rich with information that defines what it is and what it isn't, almost inseparably so. To be is to have information. When physicists study matter and energy what they seem to be doing is observing, or even extracting, their information content. When people talk about the laws of physics (not in the descriptive sense) they are talking about the underlying rules of the universe; if those rules are anything, they have to be information.
I think that you hit it there. The information that is contained within the rock is the rock. Neither the rock nor the information about its long and tawdry history can be separated one from the other without both of them becoming something else. It's probably only with the advent of sentients that the information is able to finally get out and stretch its legs. Prior to that, it was stuck in that rock for all of time, fixed to its medium like a fly in amber.
In a very real sense, information is the language of consciousness. That doesn't mean that it is embedded by consciousness. Consciousness extracts information, but it does not imbue it -- not that you're arguing that.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 18, 2025 at 9:52 pm
(This post was last modified: May 18, 2025 at 11:34 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
A useful analogy. Language describes a cat, it doesn't make a cat. Cats would exist even if we had no word for them - but then we'd be at a loss to explain why things keep coming off the side of the table. Our thinking about catness isn't what makes that happen. Similarly, A God Thinkering about things is just that. Conceivable, and just like us, it's capable of thinkering which isn't effective irl. I can imagine a cat but the cat of my imagination doesn't push shit off the table outside of it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 18, 2025 at 10:26 pm
(May 18, 2025 at 8:51 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Consciousness extracts information, but it does not imbue it...
Right, the implication there is that information exists. It does not need to be perceived to exist. It is a real part of the universe, and I would argue its most fundamental part.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 18, 2025 at 11:33 pm
A pregnant argument.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 19, 2025 at 12:33 am
(May 18, 2025 at 10:26 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (May 18, 2025 at 8:51 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Consciousness extracts information, but it does not imbue it...
Right, the implication there is that information exists. It does not need to be perceived to exist. It is a real part of the universe, and I would argue its most fundamental part.
No perception is needed for those patterns to keep unfolding. There is an objective Universe aside from our own understanding, that it be here whether or not we are. The Universe existed billions of years before consciousness as we know it arose. Indeed, it led to us.
To paraphrase Freeman Dyson, "We are the Universe, pondering itself." We just happen to sit in the catbird seat.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 19, 2025 at 5:40 am
(This post was last modified: May 19, 2025 at 5:42 am by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
(May 19, 2025 at 12:33 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: (May 18, 2025 at 10:26 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: Right, the implication there is that information exists. It does not need to be perceived to exist. It is a real part of the universe, and I would argue its most fundamental part.
No perception is needed for those patterns to keep unfolding. There is an objective Universe aside from our own understanding, that it be here whether or not we are. The Universe existed billions of years before consciousness as we know it arose. Indeed, it led to us.
To paraphrase Freeman Dyson, "We are the Universe, pondering itself." We just happen to sit in the catbird seat.
(Bold mine)
True enough, but the SDAs insist that the Earth is just 6000 years old (more or less). I've yet to hear a scientific explanation of how consciousness arose in that teensy-weensy time frame.
In all fairness, I don't know why religionists insist on dragging science - and more often pseudo science - into their beliefs. They could simply say, 'It's all magic' and go off and have a nice brunch.
Boru
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 19, 2025 at 6:19 am
(May 19, 2025 at 5:40 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: In all fairness, I don't know why religionists insist on dragging science - and more often pseudo science - into their beliefs. They could simply say, 'It's all magic' and go off and have a nice brunch.
Boru
Cognitive dissonance.
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 19, 2025 at 6:24 am
(May 19, 2025 at 6:19 am)Alan V Wrote: (May 19, 2025 at 5:40 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: In all fairness, I don't know why religionists insist on dragging science - and more often pseudo science - into their beliefs. They could simply say, 'It's all magic' and go off and have a nice brunch.
Boru
Cognitive dissonance.
I lean more towards ‘desperation’. Deep in their collective heart of hearts, they know that their beliefs are on shaky ground. In their mumbling, fumbling way, they need science to legitimize those beliefs.
So far, it’s been an epic fail.
Boru
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 19, 2025 at 7:48 am
(May 19, 2025 at 6:19 am)Alan V Wrote: Cognitive dissonance.
Always with the armchair psychology lol. Go ahead, tell us what cognitive dissonance is and how it explains the behavior that Boru alleged?
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RE: In your opinion what causes christians to believe in Jesus
May 19, 2025 at 7:52 am
(May 19, 2025 at 7:48 am)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: (May 19, 2025 at 6:19 am)Alan V Wrote: Cognitive dissonance.
Always with the armchair psychology lol. Go ahead, tell us what cognitive dissonance is and how it explains the behavior that Boru alleged?
Armchair psychology - hmmm...projecting much?
Breezy, you have become one of biggest trolls on this forum. It's a shame because I think you may be smart enough, under your facade, to actually contribute positively to the members here.
I'm your huckleberry.
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