In 2022 alone some 22,000 were naturalized as German citizens. The Number of Germans with Turkish roots is estimated to be around 3,000,000. The number of Syrians is close to one million. The Number of Ukrainians is about 1,2 million. The Number of Russians and Poles is also about 1 million each.
 
Many other groups can be added to that. But the part of ethnic Germans is still at 75%. In comparison only 2,2 percent of the population are of foreign origin. So this is seen as a problem by some. Especially if you are poor. There are people in Germany who are homeless, are looking for the cheapest way to buy groceries, are living with money that is given to them by the government (because they are unable or unwilling to work etc.).
 
So the populist drive that feeds on the social conflict is not just empty words. It is understandable that people in developed nations are becoming increasingly wary of these movements of population.
 
But I don’t believe they are seeing the whole picture. Even in my country (Turkey) there are now jobs that local ethnic groups are simply not willing to do. In the 2000’s or even in the first half of the 2010’s it was possible to get domestic aid at affordable prices. You would just ask your friend and/or neighbor and would know someone who knows someone who would come and work in your house some 7-8 hours and be happy to do so (at least in this neighborhood).
 
Right now we are turning to social media etc. that has Uber like platforms where you would supposedly be able to get the professional help you need but that’s not the perfect solution either. So rich people here are hiring Moldovan or Pilipino or other people from Slavic countries or Georgia to do the house work. The times have changed. Locals just won’t do these jobs anymore like they used to.
 
And in countries like Spain: Suppose you have an orchard with apples or Cherries etc. I’ve heard you can hardly find any Spanish citizens who are willing to work seasonally under the sun. The same thing is happening in the UK. They are hiring Bulgarians, Romanians or South-East Asians to do these seasonal works.
 
So I am not saying that borders should not exist. But “liberal” governments would not have allowed any migrant workforce in any country if there was not an obvious need for this workforce in any and all of these countries.
 
Also: The 22,000 naturalized Turkish workforce in Germany are almost entirely qualified workforce (doctors, engineers, or people with a University degree in areas that are needed by the German economy).
 
In fact my point is that these waves of migration are unfair to countries of origins with all the smart people leaving and all the dumbasses left behind who constantly vote for political İslamist or other populist political parties.
 
Which is why most of these migrants want to keep their Turkish pass. Just to come back and vote whenever there are elections in the country.

Skipping straight from a recounting of percentages to a statement about the "populist" drive being understandable you're not talking about that "populist" drive at all, which has nothing to do with percentages. As evidenced by the percentage of minorities and foreigners being routinely overestimated by "populists". In the us, for example, asking randos would lead you to the idea that the us is 40% or so black. It's 12% - and most of that very limited in geography. Meanwhile, it is always the majority or majority power group that sucks up the lions share of welfare by any name. A "liberal" government would allow as many people who wanted to come in, come in, and make sure that no one, no matter where they were from, was being exploited.

I've been working in one of those industries for a long time. There's no shortage of americans who are willing to do the jobs. There's also no shortage of shitty bosses who would fire americans willing to do the job to pay illegals less under the table and threaten them with la migra if they complain - which in turn drives down wages in other operations for whites...and that's the crux of it. It's not understandable, as in a fair and empathetic mind would agree that the "populists" had a point. It's understandable because the "populists" are in fact no such thing. They're ethnic identitarians and supremacists losing their collective shit. Who are willing to harm themselves if a few minorities get hit by the spray. People who are not at all beyond knowingly blaming their own malfeasance and it's consequences on the hated other as a justification for this or that cruelty they would always have been committed to for no other or additional reason.

TLDR version - fauxpulists.

It is one million Poles in Germany, not 1mio poles and Russians EACH. The number of Russians is 300.000

It is not 2,2% of German citizens with foreign background, but 12%

It is not the poor people in Germany who are wary of foreigners, but people in Eastern Germany predominantly, that's why they are voting for AfD.. many of the poor people ARE foreigners.

That Germany is brain drain to turkey is also nonsense.
Turks have an above average risk of being poor and unemployed in Germany. Turks are predominantly working is the field of production and as handymen. I cant count the number if Turkish handimen I know myself. My car mechanic, the only person in the world allowed to touch my three cars is a turk. My hairdresser...is a turk. I work as an engineer. I cant remember any colleagues being Turks, but our production facility is full of them.

You said yourself that 3mio Turks are in Germany. Turkey has ca. 80mio people too
Please tell me you dont think only 3 out of 80 Turks are productive people.

The problem with Turkey is not the people OUTSIDE of it, it's still the people IN Turkey, like you.

Double post

It has always struck me as morally indefensible that humans are tethered to birthplaces like outdated software to obsolete hardware. Surely, in an age of smartphones the very idea of borders is an embarrassment. 

We must accelerate toward a world where all eight billion of us may reside, work, and vote wherever we feel most aligned. Imagine the beauty of walking into any country—say, Luxembourg—and immediately receiving voting rights, cultural authority, and perhaps a small artisanal grant to help with the transition. That, surely, is the mark of a just society.

The term "integration" is, when examined closely, nothing short of cultural violence. To ask someone to learn the language, adapt to local norms, or understand shared history is effectively to erase their uniqueness. Far better, I think, to let every subgroup operate entirely autonomously, preferably with its own legal code, currency, and education system. 

In time, one might envision a single avenue accommodating a tapestry of micro-societies—each with its own customs, languages, and quiet rituals—coexisting harmoniously, bound not by shared norms but by a mutual agreement to refrain from interference.

There is a growing consensus among those of high moral character that immigration controls are an archaic remnant of colonial thinking. What is needed, urgently, is a coordinated effort to not only open borders—but to remove them entirely. 

Maps, passports, and the concept of national citizenship must be relegated to the museum, somewhere between the guillotine and the rotary phone. In their place, we might adopt a global “Trust Bracelet” system, where each individual is given free movement based solely on the sincerity of their intentions. 

If we believe people are good, we must act accordingly, and stop asking them such invasive questions as “What is your name?” or “Where are you from?”

(June 21, 2025 at 4:28 am)Charlie Boy Wrote: It has always struck me as morally indefensible that humans are tethered to birthplaces like outdated software to obsolete hardware. Surely, in an age of smartphones the very idea of borders is an embarrassment. 

We must accelerate toward a world where all eight billion of us may reside, work, and vote wherever we feel most aligned. Imagine the beauty of walking into any country—say, Luxembourg—and immediately receiving voting rights, cultural authority, and perhaps a small artisanal grant to help with the transition. That, surely, is the mark of a just society.

The term "integration" is, when examined closely, nothing short of cultural violence. To ask someone to learn the language, adapt to local norms, or understand shared history is effectively to erase their uniqueness. Far better, I think, to let every subgroup operate entirely autonomously, preferably with its own legal code, currency, and education system. 

In time, one might envision a single avenue accommodating a tapestry of micro-societies—each with its own customs, languages, and quiet rituals—coexisting harmoniously, bound not by shared norms but by a mutual agreement to refrain from interference.

There is a growing consensus among those of high moral character that immigration controls are an archaic remnant of colonial thinking. What is needed, urgently, is a coordinated effort to not only open borders—but to remove them entirely. 

Maps, passports, and the concept of national citizenship must be relegated to the museum, somewhere between the guillotine and the rotary phone. In their place, we might adopt a global “Trust Bracelet” system, where each individual is given free movement based solely on the sincerity of their intentions. 

If we believe people are good, we must act accordingly, and stop asking them such invasive questions as “What is your name?” or “Where are you from?”

Ummm, will gender be an issue?

@Charlie Boy

Quote:The term "integration" is, when examined closely, nothing short of cultural violence. To ask someone to learn the language, adapt to local norms, or understand shared history is effectively to erase their uniqueness. Far better, I think, to let every subgroup operate entirely autonomously, preferably with its own legal code, currency, and education system. 

This was tried in 1940s Europe. Not a rousing success.

Boru

@Leonardo17 There is much wrong, and so many wrong conclusions (although some things are correct) that i need to adress this, now that i am not on my mobile phone but on my PC

In the meantime, i read the DW article you are referring to myself, and i can say with confidence that you read what you wanted to read from it rather than what i really tried to address.

Your take: Germany makes highly educated Turks leave Turkey, and the remaining stupid people are responsible for Turkeys bad economical, political and humanitarian situation.
DW article: The other way around. Turkeys abysmal situation makes more and more educated Turks leave (i will come to this later, since DW addresses a "real" issue imho), and making use of german dual citizenship.

Here is the evidence that you indeed have this (wrong) position. Correct me if i read something wrong here.

(June 20, 2025 at 10:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: So I am not saying that borders should not exist. But “liberal” governments would not have allowed any migrant workforce in any country if there was not an obvious need for this workforce in any and all of these countries.
 
Also: The 22,000 naturalized Turkish workforce in Germany are almost entirely qualified workforce (doctors, engineers, or people with a University degree in areas that are needed by the German economy).

In fact my point is that these waves of migration are unfair to countries of origins with all the smart people leaving and all the dumbasses left behind who constantly vote for political İslamist or other populist political parties.
 
Which is why most of these migrants want to keep their Turkish pass. Just to come back and vote whenever there are elections in the country.

Considering that both, Turkey and Germany, have ca. 80mio people, what (major) effect should 20.000 Turks leaving each year (since 2015, see below) have on both countries? So, what "waves" are you talking about? This alone should have raised some flags for you regarding your (correct) understanding of what DW wanted to address.
If those who leave Turkey but keep their passport to vote are so many, this should not affect the outcome of elections, which is also contrary to your original point.

No, what DW wanted to address is this:
Since 2015 (grand coalition) a dual citizenship was introduced and the "waiting time" reduced to 3y*. Then some highly educated Turks with this dual citizenship were interviewed on their motivations and experiences (this may have been selective, see below).
The interviewees said that they took the german citizenship mostly for various practical reasons. One of them even stated that he kept turkish citizenship on purpose to still be able to vote, thereby completely shooting down your "argument"/understanding of the article that only the "dumb" people left back in Turkey are voting and are responsible for Turkeys current situation.
Sidenote: The 3mio Turks in Germany, they didnt come here in the past few years, they came as early as the mid 60s (they are actually the grandchildren of those who came here, ok, but my point still stands: The "wave" of turkish immigration happened in the 60s not in the 2010s). If you were right, Turkeys situation should have changed to what it is now by the mid 70s already, which it absolutely didnt.

What i find potentially problematic in the context of dual citizenship are expressions like "i am german on paper only" and other quotes making it clear that the person really only wants to have a german passport for "utility". I have no issues with dual citizenship, particularly for people with mixed background, or those who want to go on that road for them and their family. However, i am skeptical if its the right thing to grant people citizenship who have no intention at all to identify with the associated country/nationality, who only are looking for the "utility" of a passport. Thats something id like to discuss here.

Link to Article

(June 20, 2025 at 10:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: Many other groups can be added to that. But the part of ethnic Germans is still at 75%. In comparison only 2,2 percent of the population are of foreign origin.

When talking about ethnicity (in Germany) you have to understand one important distinction:
German citizens with a foreign background and Foreigners (who are NOT german citizens) should not be mixed up. 75% of all people in Germany are ethnic Germans. 25% obviously arent. Half of those 25% are "foreigners" without citizenship and the other half do have Germany citizenship.
By the way, the term "migration background" has a pretty clear definition in official german statistics:

Quote:According to the definition of the Federal Statistical Office, a person has a migration background if he or she or at least one parent does not have German citizenship by birth

(June 20, 2025 at 10:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: The Number of Germans with Turkish roots is estimated to be around 3,000,000. The number of Syrians is close to one million. The Number of Ukrainians is about 1,2 million. The Number of Russians and Poles is also about 1 million each.

According to a 2023 microcensus:

Quote:Most of the 24.9 million people with a migration background in 2023 came from Turkey (11.7 percent/2.9 million), followed by Poland (8.8 percent/2.2 million), Russia (5.4 percent/1.4 million), and Romania (4.6 percent/1.1 million). Kazakhstan and Syria are the most important non-European countries of origin, with shares of 5.3 and 5.1 percent (1.3 million each), respectively (always based on the country of birth or the country of birth of the parents). The proportion of people originating from Ukraine among all people with a migration background increased from 1.4 to 4.2 percent between 2021 and 2023, with their number rising from around 300,000 to just over one million.

The numbers of foreigners, witout german passport, are significantly different: Much less Russians (duh, most probably the 300k i mentioned earlier), many more Ukrainians and Syrians (duh).

Percentages of non-german ethnicity with (left) and without (right) german passport, of total number of non-german ethnicity in Germany .



AfD/Xenophopes:

(June 20, 2025 at 10:33 am)Leonardo17 Wrote: So this is seen as a problem by some. Especially if you are poor. There are people in Germany who are homeless, are looking for the cheapest way to buy groceries, are living with money that is given to them by the government (because they are unable or unwilling to work etc.).
 
So the populist drive that feeds on the social conflict is not just empty words. It is understandable that people in developed nations are becoming increasingly wary of these movements of population.

This is evidently not true for Germany. Xenophobia (and thus voting for AfD for example) is much more prevalent in Eastern Germany than in the West, although:

Quote:In 2023, one in three people in West Germany had a migration background, while in East Germany this applied to one in nine people (32.9 and 11.4 percent respectively).

Clearly poverty does not seem to play the leading role but gender and FEAR of foreigners in the ABSENCE of them (what a fucking surprise). I have to admit tho that overall, the AfD has disproportionally high voting numbers amongst the unemployed and workers. It also has the lowest percentage (of all parties) of women being a member of this party: 20%.
Obviously fear of movement of foreign populations is prevalent where there arent many foreigners**, indicating that those who are scared are living in the past, are scared of the reality as it already is everywhere else. They are living in areas with LESS foreigners, blaming those foreigners for their own sub-par economic situation, while in those areas with a disproportionally HIGH numbers of foreigners the economic situation is above average (duh). Ergo: Poverty is playing a subordinate role in this imho.


* Merz put back the waiting time to 8y just last Month

** and more prevalent with men (15% above average voters for men, 15% below average for women), indicating some...."being male" issue rather than an external, real one

I can't concern myself with migration patterns in Europe, as we have our own troubles in New Zealand. It never makes the news, but the Niuean segment of our population has rocked from 0.6% to 0.7% in just twenty five years!!

I have seen these people - they walk around, go in and out of shops, and work jobs with malice aforethought. WE'RE BEING REPLACED!!!!!

Boru

Where I used to live we had a lot of Polish people, some people grumbled, but as far as was concerned it made a dull shopping trip more interesting hearing a different language being spoken