(March 4, 2026 at 10:48 am)Ivan Denisovich Wrote:

(March 4, 2026 at 5:15 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: He's also been at some pains to redefine things like 'populism', 'martyr', and 'religion'. To be as fair as possible, though, it's not just Leo - it's a common trait among people who need to make up their own definitions to defend whack-a-doodle ideas. Make's 'em hard to dialogue with.

For the record, though, I have no problem with spiritual atheism. 'Spiritual, but not religious' is perfectly valid.

Boru

Socrates knew that he knew nothing. Leo does not know that he knows nothing.

Yeah, that’s the flip side of Socratic irony.

Boru

I think I posted a message in this thread earlier today. I don’t know if my message was deleted or if I failed to post it.
 
- I think these are rather simple and understandable viewpoints but if you find these issues annoying I can decide to stop mentioning them from now on.

@Leonardo17

Quote:When we talk about religious extremism (like messianic approaches in the US for instance) we are talking about observable / measurable realities (like Israeli extremists illegally colonizing Palestinian territory in a way that is based on their interpretation of the bible.

Doesn’t this rather give the lie to your earlier claim that EVERYONE thinks people should be allowed to determine their own spirituality?

Boru

I can't be bothered to read all that pretzel-babble.

(March 4, 2026 at 7:21 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I can't be bothered to read all that pretzel-babble.

I usually just skim it and only respond to what strikes me as particularly asinine. Sometimes, it’s rather a difficult choice.

Boru

(March 4, 2026 at 6:17 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: @Leonardo17

Quote:When we talk about religious extremism (like messianic approaches in the US for instance) we are talking about observable / measurable realities (like Israeli extremists illegally colonizing Palestinian territory in a way that is based on their interpretation of the bible.

Doesn’t this rather give the lie to your earlier claim that EVERYONE thinks people should be allowed to determine their own spirituality?

Boru

… within limits.
 
1) You need to respect the liberty and freedom of other people
 
2) You need to remain within some sort of logical framework.
 
Ex: To the Salafist interpretation of Islam the non-Muslim part of the world is “Land that is destined to be conquered by Holy War”. In the Shiite version of Salafism, Sunni Muslim countries are included in this “Land that is destined to be conquered by Holy War”.
 
This is a real example and it doesn’t fit into neither of the “boundaries to the practice of religion” I’ve just defined above.
 
See: Religion doesn’t need to be “uncool” for you not to like it. You can be not attracted to religion without any particular reason at all. If you think atheism is cool, then that’s the end of the story for you full stop.
 
How about we don’t discuss this anymore and go back to what’s happening in Iran?
 
- It’s very serious you know. Over 1000 people are already dead and the palace of the Pahlavi dynasty (a UNESCO cultural heritage site) was hit in today’s bombings.

@Leonardo17

Quote:How about we don’t discuss this anymore and go back to what’s happening in Iran?

You started it.

Boru

(March 4, 2026 at 6:06 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote:

My only proposal is that the phenomenon as a whole is evolving and will probably continue to do so in the future. And I believe that this change will mostly be for the better and thus contribute to our evolution as a specie as well.

A misunderstanding of evolution.  Worse can just as easily contribute.  Why do you think these magic books are full of rapists and wargods?  It's a perennially successful strategy.

@Leonardo17

Quote:My only proposal is that the phenomenon as a whole is evolving and will probably continue to do so in the future. And I believe that this change will mostly be for the better and thus contribute to our evolution as a specie as well.

*puzzled frown* We're turning into money?

Boru

I’m not sure I’m understanding all of your comments either.
 
I’m someone who has met lots of atheists and lots of non-atheists. I’m like this. I talk to people.
 
What I would call “people with distorted religious believes” are usually very smart people. They have the ability of convincing people in a way that is (at first) based on some religious principles that are actually correct in our highly capitalistic / materialist societies.
 
My proposal is that, these core ideas that are present within all main spiritual traditions in this world are actually correct. If we learn to discern some of these core ideas and “grant to Caesar what belongs to Caesar” then we get to a completely new level of discussion with these corrupted minds that I am talking about.
 
So you may maintain your usual rhetoric as atheists. I’m not jeopardizing any of these main arguments here. In fact I would be willing to have discussions on these issues (one by one) in the coming days or months.
 
But I, as a believer in spiritual truths will sort of keep reminding everyone that in terms of having a spiritual approach in the more universal sense of the word, some approaches that we are observing not only in the Middle-East but in many places of the world are simply not working.
 

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On a personal level: I get a little sad every time I hear about Lebanon these days. When I was a kid Beirut was described as “the Paris of the Middle-East”. It’s really weird when you hear that places you have visited as a teenager are gradually turning into rubble within a few days or so