(September 11, 2026 at 9:42 pm)Ravenshire Wrote:

(September 11, 2026 at 9:29 pm)Belacqua Wrote: *its

When grammar nazi's get all bent out of shape, I just pat 'em on the head and say there, their, they're.

Your game is fucking weak as shit, Bel.

To be fair, Bel's irrelevant grammar corrections are a refreshing change from his repeated and wrongheaded contention that the views of a handful of dead theologians have more to do with Christianity than the views of 2 1/2 billion Christians.

If you can't make the big arguments, you can always pounce on trivialities.

Boru

(September 11, 2026 at 11:07 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're making a grander claim, that "the deterministic universe" can't do x y or z...but it can, and does, and does it with regularity. 

Deterministic universe? Sheer assertion, and contrary to common sense. A cause-effect universe lacks a first cause (First Mover), that is, a self-locomoting mover. If we're going to debate possible universes, why not debate the ones that at least satisfy common sense?

Quote:As for the good in subjectivity to an electromechanical system...first, whatever else you believe about yourself..you are one..and it seems like you think it's doing you some good.  That said, this is one thing you at least flirt with something true and profound about.  You actually do want your car to be aware of itself and of itself in an environment and of the most crucial bits of it's inner workings, at least....and it is.  I get that you don't want it to annoy or inconvenience you on account of this...but it already does, doesn't it?  Endless hiccups and misfires and trips to the shop.  Phantom caution lights.  The proximity sensors hallucinating.  Update after update turning the ui into gibberish and back into something resolvable as sense.  All of that before it gets slammed into by another car at 60mph.  Real pain in the ass after damage and age starts piling up.

No idea what your point is here, feels like rambling. I don't see how any of these statements address a crucial point, namely that subjective feelings such as hunger serve no purpose in a domino-universe, and thus should not have evolved, because the hungry person/domino is 100% passive and thus unable to initiate bodily movement. Not to mention the inconceivability of unconscious particles suddenly becoming self-aware as to have feelings in the first place.

Quote:
You experience these things yourself for much the same reason.  You're a vulnerable legacy system with a particular architecture and all of the bugs and unintended interactions that come with that as a consequence of your genetic lineage.  In addition to this, your environment is changed drastically from the environment you are adapted to operate in.  There are many evolutionary explanations of depression...but maybe it's just a malfunction.  In "the deterministic universe" this is, as you say, just how the dominoes fell.  The specific behavior or function either increased our fitness or it was a secondary byproduct of something else that did.  In whatever god breathed world you hope to live in it is truly inexplicable and not just a little bit sinister.  Bloodgod having fun at our expense again?  It creates a world full of things that can do x y and z without this added wrinkle..and it produces a reality in which many more things that it didn't create - that we now have..can do them even better than we can.....but for us, it's very special boys....it adds depression.  Rage.  Pain.  Despair.  Hunger.  Suicidal ideation.

You seem to be glossing over the point. In our universe there is a direct correlation between feelings and behavior, e.g.
Pain => I adjust my behavior accordingly.
Depression => I adjust my behavior accordingly.
Hunger => I adjust my behavior accordingly.

In a domino universe, I CANNOT proactively adjust my behavior because it's all cause-effect. From the OP, I've argued that cause-effect (domino effect) determinism is an insufficient description of our reality, and fails to provide a First Mover. I still see no reason to doubt that argument.

(September 11, 2026 at 11:32 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:  You imagine that for a ball to move or change direction it must be hit by another ball.  I guess that's intuitive, but is it true?  Balls fall.

For purposes of a first mover question, the question of how balls fall SUBSEQUENT to the first motion is tangential. You're rambling.

Quote:Don't you think it's tragic that you cannot see the hand of your own god in the world as it is?  

(Personally I do see His hand in my own life but setting that aside...)
Yes, absolutely tragic. But if God is good, aren't some of the possible explanations obvious? Examples:
(1). As a finite being, God CANNOT do more than He is already doing. In fact that's part of my theodicy defined earlier, although I can't recall if I elaborated enough on this point.
(2). As His people, WE need to do better, to elicit His intervention in our lives.

Quote:You say that you clearly saw the flaws in mainstream theology - well okay - are you doomed to repeat one of it's most shameful flaws?  Can the things you believe in simply not be true if the world is as it seems?  If evolutionary biology is true, is god false?  If gravity exists, is god false?  If deterministic processes can create specifically human experiences, is god false?

Seems unlikely that any of those things would thoroughly disprove God's existence.

(September 11, 2026 at 11:07 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If your god existed the way you've painted it, it wouldn't be worthy of worship, it would be worthy of contempt.  

This assessment of Yahweh qualifies you to be the most selfish and self-centered individual on planet earth, assuming you've read my basic theodicy at post 35.

In that post I maintained:
1. The "hell" mentioned in Scripture is only temporary.
2. Yahweh saved everyone from an ETERNITY of hellish suffering. He did this by UNSELFISHLY laboring/suffering for 13 billion years minimum (but probably much longer) to acquire the skills to oversee and protect every (innately conscious) particle in the Totality of matter (which is probably larger than our universe). In our next life, He will insure universal peace, tranquility, and halted suffering for all eternity.

As a finite being, Yahweh suffers serious limitations. I don't think there is any significant lack of reach, power, and skills, but there are:
(1) Promises He must fulfill. He presumably contracted with His huge array of constituent parts to have a (libertarian-free) church as his (only) reward for 13+ billions years of labor (viz. "Hey come work for me 13 billion years. After that, your only payment will be a bride"). Huh?

(2) Emotional limitations.
- (2A) When people show insufficient appreciation for God's blessings, His tolerance is limited, for one thing the anguish is too excruciating, and secondly His righteous anger will destroy them. Evolution isn't helping matters much, because it implicitly robs Him of credit for His accomplishments. He finds it difficult to reach out to the heart of an atheist, because their resistance to theism is excruciating to Him.

-(2B). I don't think Scripture is comprehensive on atonement. One death on calvary paid the sins for a billion people? Scripture speaks of the lamb slain form the foundation of the world. I suspect, behind the scenes, He atones individually for each person. He's been doing this for thousands of years. THAT is the Yahweh that you view with contempt, spitting in His face. It will be interesting to see you try to explain your presumptuous attitude to Him on judgment day.
The point is, reaching out to save someone is excruciating because it means another behind-the-scenes atonement/Calvary. Too much excruciation could compromise the Godhead (viz a nervous breakdown) and we'd all be in deep shit for all eternity.

When His people are faithful in prayer and worship, it's a healing balm remediating some of the excruciation. Meaning, to the extent we can meet His needs, He can meet our needs.

(September 12, 2026 at 8:35 am)Jal Wrote:

Quote: If evolutionary biology is true, is god false?  If gravity exists, is god false?  If deterministic processes can create specifically human experiences, is god false?

Seems unlikely that any of those things would thoroughly disprove God's existence.

"I believe in gods because the universe can't do blah blah blah..but if it can....I still believe." 

Quote:This assessment of Yahweh qualifies you to be the most selfish and self-centered individual on planet earth,

It's your assessment.  You're the one who says god can't do this, and did do that.  I don't think I'm going to be the one who has to worry about things come judgement day my man. I'm just a domino that hasn't been pushed into a belief state. You met a god, you say, and for whatever reason turned it into the backstory to push your own weird grievances, to flaunt your own specific ignorance, to opine at length about it's incompetence from where you sit.

You need to spend some time with Matthew 7:21-23.

(September 12, 2026 at 9:45 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: "I believe in gods because the universe can't do blah blah blah..but if it can....I still believe." 

You seem to be putting words in my mouth. My PRIMARY reason for belief is the Inward Witness.
As for gravity, it's kind of a nonstarter because for me it's basically an oxymoron as traditionally defined. It's like asking me, "If square circles exist, would it disprove god's existence?" Huh?

Quote:It's your assessment.  You're the one who says god can't do this, and did do that. 

Deflection. Yes it's my assessment, duh it's my theodicy. My CONCERN here was, if Yahweh is what I say He is, why would you view Him with contempt? Wouldn't that make you an ungrateful self-centered selfish jerk? My Dad labored/suffered about 60 years for me and I'm plenty grateful. So if the heavenly Father labored 13 billion years for us, as I have argued, and would do even more for us save for His limitations, why would you view Him with contempt? Who does that? What kind of a person are you, anyway?

You seem to think that an infinite God (one with no physical or emotional limitations) - one who is so innately powerful that He never had to labor/suffer - merits more gratitude than a hardworking God. That's idiocy, isn't it? Isn't that the opposite of how gratitude is supposed to work?

Quote: I don't think I'm going to be the one who has to worry about things come judgement day my man.  I'm just a domino that hasn't been pushed into a belief state.  You met a god, you say, and for whatever reason turned it into the backstory to push your own weird grievances, to flaunt your own specific ignorance, to opine at length about it's incompetence from where you sit.

You need to spend some time with Matthew 7:21-23.

Meanwhile you might want to reflect on John 14:6.

(September 12, 2026 at 10:36 am)Jal Wrote:

(September 12, 2026 at 9:45 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:  I don't think I'm going to be the one who has to worry about things come judgement day my man.  I'm just a domino that hasn't been pushed into a belief state.  You met a god, you say, and for whatever reason turned it into the backstory to push your own weird grievances, to flaunt your own specific ignorance, to opine at length about it's incompetence from where you sit.

You need to spend some time with Matthew 7:21-23.

Meanwhile you might want to reflect on John 14:6.

(September 12, 2026 at 10:36 am)Jal Wrote: You seem to be putting words in my mouth. My PRIMARY reason for belief is the Inward Witness.

You've done a fine job of putting words into your own mouth for many pages now.  Look...if you don't actually believe on the basis of any of this shit - if you being wrong about all of it would not modify your belief...then don't waste our time or your time dragging your own gods good name through the mud over shit that doesn't matter to anyone.

Quote:Deflection. Yes it's my assessment, duh it's my theodicy. 

Not gods, though.  Huh?  Maybe you're just a particularly small minded domino confusing it's own ignorance for gods actions, attributes, and limitations?

Quote:You seem to think that an infinite God (one with no physical or emotional limitations) - one who is so innately powerful that He never had to labor/suffer - merits more gratitude than a hardworking God.   

Gods don't exist to deserve anything.  

Quote:Meanwhile you might want to reflect on John 14:6.

I already told you I wasn't interested in being your boyfriend's boyfriend.  

You're a bad witness dude.  You could fuck up introducing sugar to a toddler.  I think it's hilarious...but I'm guessing it's something you might want to work on.

(September 12, 2026 at 10:36 am)Jal Wrote:

(September 12, 2026 at 9:45 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: "I believe in gods because the universe can't do blah blah blah..but if it can....I still believe." 

You seem to be putting words in my mouth. My PRIMARY reason for belief is the Inward Witness.
As for gravity, it's kind of a nonstarter because for me it's basically an oxymoron as traditionally defined. It's like asking me, "If square circles exist, would it disprove god's existence?"  Huh?

Quote:It's your assessment.  You're the one who says god can't do this, and did do that. 

Deflection. Yes it's my assessment, duh it's my theodicy. My CONCERN here was, if Yahweh is what I say He is, why would you view Him with contempt? Wouldn't that make you an ungrateful self-centered selfish jerk?   My Dad labored/suffered about 60 years for me and I'm plenty grateful. So if the heavenly Father labored 13 billion years for us, as I have argued, and would do even more for us save for His limitations,  why would you view Him with contempt? Who does that? What kind of a person are you, anyway?

You seem to think that an infinite God (one with no physical or emotional limitations) - one who is so innately powerful that He never had to labor/suffer - merits more gratitude than a hardworking God.   That's idiocy, isn't it? Isn't that the opposite of how gratitude is supposed to work?

Quote: I don't think I'm going to be the one who has to worry about things come judgement day my man.  I'm just a domino that hasn't been pushed into a belief state.  You met a god, you say, and for whatever reason turned it into the backstory to push your own weird grievances, to flaunt your own specific ignorance, to opine at length about it's incompetence from where you sit.

You need to spend some time with Matthew 7:21-23.

Meanwhile you might want to reflect on John 14:6.

John 14:6 ‘I’m on my way to tell the truth to your wife. Her father’s through with you.’ (The original Koine Greek seems to have been garbled.)

Boru

(September 12, 2026 at 11:20 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:   Look...if you don't actually believe on the basis of any of this shit - if you being wrong about all of it would not modify your belief...then don't waste our time or your time dragging your own gods good name through the mud over shit that doesn't matter to anyone.

I don't think it's a waste of time to debate the merits and demerits of competing metaphysical world views. Might be eye-opening to all parties.

Quote:Not gods, though.  Huh?  Maybe you're just a particularly small minded domino confusing it's own ignorance for gods actions, attributes, and limitations?

As I can't seem to find an alternative theodicy worth the paper it's printed on...

Quote: Gods don't exist to deserve anything.

Deflection.  

Quote:I already told you I wasn't interested in being your boyfriend's boyfriend.  

You pointed me to a passage in scripture, I just responded in kind.

Quote:You're a bad witness dude.  You could fuck up introducing sugar to a toddler.  I think it's hilarious...but I'm guessing it's something you might want to work on.

Since the whole church still seems clueless on the biblical term "witness", I suspect you are equally in the dark. Hint: "bad witness" is oxymoronic, once you understand the term.