(January 9, 2012 at 5:06 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: This is why it's pointless to believe in a religion such as that.

I don't follow. Whys is it pointless to believe in a religion that rewards one only based on works?

kılıç_mehmet Wrote:I'd rather go and worship a God that can appreciate my adoration.

Sure, but God's nature wouldn't be dependent upon your desires. What you would rather worship is irrelevant.

kılıç_mehmet Wrote:Maybe it is, maybe it is not. And even if God has issues, why really go against a higher being that has issues? One must be a fool to do so.
The point is, God does not have to do anything. He certainly has no obligation to look after your wellbeing, as you're not even the size of a bacteria in comparison to him, as he is, the universe, the multiverse, or whatever. What do you hope to accomplish by telling God how he should behave himself?

I'm not trying to go against god nor tell him/her/it how to behave. I'm pointing out that this construct of a deity is far from plausible.

kılıç_mehmet Wrote:In one way...But on the other hand, he promises you an eternal life of happiness in heaven. That counts as an incentive.

But what does that matter when you've already stated that people would not believe in a religion without eternal punishment?

kılıç_mehmet Wrote:The many faiths around the earth stand in testimony to this.

Consensus among religious dogma is nothing more than proof that the want for one's enemies to be punishment regardless of what justice comes in this life is a universal human desire.

In response to the OP, I am in the middle of writing an article on this very issue. Hell is nothing more than scare tactics because Christians know they really don't have anything else. When offering an invisible best friend for life and a mansion in the sky after you die doesn't work, they have to rely on the scare tactics. But my stance is that threats of Hell don't work on those of us who don't believe in such a place. It's like saying that you have an invisible dragon in your back yard that will eat me if I don't believe it's there.

Secondly, threats of hell are pretty silly to begin with, because these people are saying that God loves us but will send us to Hell not only if we don't worship him, but if we break the tiniest of many conflicting rules he set down for us in an ancient, confusing book. If he loves us so much, why eternal torture? Why even the threat? It's like a deranged stalker holding a gun to a woman's head and threatening to kill her if she doesn't marry him.

Thirdly, the idea of sending unbelievers to Hell is totally cruel and unjust for a god which is supposed to be totally just. He never shows us proof that he exists or why he should be worshiped, but if we don't then he casts us into a lake of fire.

And lastly, Pascal's Wager is no way to live your life. If you honestly believe that God is real, that's fine. But if you're just going through the motions because you're afraid Hell might be real, then you're not being true to yourself or to God. And of course an all-knowing God would know that.

(January 9, 2012 at 3:52 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

Quote:My ears have been raped the past 3 weeks with preachers saying that if i don't accept god I will go to hell

As the bible states.

Quote: or the only way to get to heaven was to accept god as my savior.

As the bible states.

Quote:but right up in your face and in front of everyone say "this man is going to hell because he does not believe."

Are they wrong? At least from their viewpoint?

Quote: Then I reply why should I fear someone that has never shown one shred of evidence that he ever existed

Well, that's the point of faith. Really, if you don't why do you even bother getting mad at that person for telling you that you're going to hell?

Quote:Why should I worship your god, if there are so many different religions, even in your own faith, that dissagree on the contex of the bible.

No matter what religion you worship, they will tell you nothing else but what this man told you.

Quote:They would answer that I have to believe and god will show me the way. I have to have faith. Then i respond Why do you have to try to scare everyone into beleiving in your god?

Since you're all scared and all, do you believe in Jesus?
Or do you think that they adress their words to the believers themselves?

Quote: i replied that I am not afraid of hell, and heaven wouldn't be a place i would want to dwell anyhow for eternity.

Why? It's rather foolish to pick hell over heaven. Only a fool would do so.

Quote:Kissing some guy's ass is not what i call fun.

You'd rather burn for all eternity? Be my guess. I'd take my chances with kissing his ass.

Quote:secondly there is no evidence of heaven or hell so if there is a god

Which brings us to the point to why you were having this meaningless discussion about "I'd rather choose hell" thing.

Quote:so if there is a god, he set us up to fail. so i would have lost all respect for him

But there is faith, friend. Really, it's a personal thing.

Quote: what if your religion is the wrong religion and mormonism is true, or muslim or what if they are all screwed and zeus was the real god and everyone has dismissed him.

But that'd really bring you nowhere, really. IF you have doubts about the geniunity of your faith, and think that it might not be real, I suggest you look for another one, until you find the one that seems to be real.

Quote: I finally ended with if you put blind faith into fear and god it can cause intolerance and even uneeded wars.

Wow, you showed him.

It's not real you know.

Who are these preachers? Are they holding you captive, or something? You're a lot more patient than I am. Those preachers would be spitting chiclets it it were me. I could maybe sit through an inquisition like that for 20 minutes, out of amusement, but eventually my patience would run out, and... to the moon, Alice.

What do we call people who get a kick out of being talked down to, humiliated, tortured, and occassionaly killed!

Correct: we call them masochists! 'Subs' as they are known in the trade. An extremely common personality disorder: the churches, mosques, temples, and SM dungeons are full of chronic sufferers.
And very conveniently, God, the sadistic overlord was just looking for a bunch of stupid pricks to crack His Whip over (and screw the occasional virgin). So God, the clergy, and the faithful fit hand in glove. They need each other. None of them can exist without the others.

Oh, and that goes for every kind of religion, KM. Islam too.

(January 9, 2012 at 7:21 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: In response to the OP, I am in the middle of writing an article on this very issue. Hell is nothing more than scare tactics because Christians know they really don't have anything else. When offering an invisible best friend for life and a mansion in the sky after you die doesn't work, they have to rely on the scare tactics. But my stance is that threats of Hell don't work on those of us who don't believe in such a place. It's like saying that you have an invisible dragon in your back yard that will eat me if I don't believe it's there.

I do not have a dragon but, I do have Rotties that might find you tasty... just kidding, they might lick you to death. To give an answer to your above statement though, Christians have nothing to give you or offer you, all we can do is witness to what we know. Jesus preached more on hell than he did heaven so, it must have been extremely important to avoid hell. I would rather witness to a person about how wonderful it is to be a christian and what wonderful things God has in store for us. The loving relationship with God is what I want people to know about, what peace and comfort there is in this relationship and I'm not referring to, not going to hell, but what God does for me in my every day life. When people say it's not true or real then there is not much left to tell them about but hell and I believe that a christian would be negligent if he/she did not witness to the tragedy of hell.

DT Wrote:Secondly, threats of hell are pretty silly to begin with, because these people are saying that God loves us but will send us to Hell not only if we don't worship him, but if we break the tiniest of many conflicting rules he set down for us in an ancient, confusing book. If he loves us so much, why eternal torture? Why even the threat? It's like a deranged stalker holding a gun to a woman's head and threatening to kill her if she doesn't marry him.

Hell is not a threat, it is the result of non belief, no more no less. God does love us all, it is not his will that anyone go to hell and it is not his will to force anyone to believe. God gives you a choice to believe, he wants you to come to know him through love not fear. If one comes to believe in him through fear and then through love come to know him that's better than the results of choosing to not believe. Salvation has nothing to do with works as you suggest but through faith in Christ, which leads to belief, which leads to knowledge and which leads to understanding. A woman with a gun to her head has no choice, God does give you a choice and tells you of the results of the choice so, you will not be surprised.

DT Wrote:Thirdly, the idea of sending unbelievers to Hell is totally cruel and unjust for a god which is supposed to be totally just. He never shows us proof that he exists or why he should be worshiped, but if we don't then he casts us into a lake of fire.

Yes, God will send you to hell if you decide not to believe in Christ, he is giving you the result of the choice you made not, one he forced you to make. I'm not sure why you believe the way you do about God's justice. How is justice served if God allows unforgiven sinners into heaven
with the forgiven sinner when he promises that would not be the case. Do you think that a criminal and an innocent person should be treated the same? God's justice is determined by who he is and not what we might believe he is.

DT Wrote:And lastly, Pascal's Wager is no way to live your life. If you honestly believe that God is real, that's fine. But if you're just going through the motions because you're afraid Hell might be real, then you're not being true to yourself or to God. And of course an all-knowing God would know that.

I agree with you, I say it this way though, if you are using christian beliefs as an insurance policy it want work, there is no true belief in that kind of fear.
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But what if you are wrong in your beliefs?

(January 9, 2012 at 5:28 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: If we were speaking of humans, and talked of a prison instead of hell, you'd be correct, however, this is God that you are up against. You know, you can't really fight back against something like that, unless you have something similar to guard your back.

You really are a fucking pussy. If I were god I'd send you to hell just for being such a damn wimp.

Oh, and I'm sure satan will welcome us all with open arms. We all know he's the arch enemy of god, not like he's gonna actually go through with punishing us in hell, and be doing god a favor. That's just his master plan see, he tells god he's gonna punish us, but really he's gonna bring us all back to life as mutant zombies to take over the world. MUHAHAHAHAAAA.

At least according to what I wrote down on this piece of paper earlier. I made sure to put 'god' as the author. Clever huh.

So it must be true.

(January 10, 2012 at 5:23 am)Godschild Wrote: God does love us all, it is not his will that anyone go to hell

Bullshit. Why did he create Hell in the first place, knowing full well beforehand that he would send most of the people on Earth there? Why not just make those people disappear, or never allow them to exist in the first place?

Did god not have a choice when he created this place where the bad people burn?