People have pet beliefs that is immune from criticism. We are extremely good at compartmentalization. I've had someone tell me in the same breath that when someone's husband died in a car accident it was God's will and that the killer had free will to run the red light. I could not, no matter how I tried, make her see the contradiction and I had to give up. She basically ran her argument around in circles.

Hey,

Can I state to very few people are really agnostic or atheist? That a lot of people say they are, but have not thought it through? I live in a very, very secular part of the world, and I wouldn't go so far as to say very few people believe in god...

Quote:A belief in God would require 100% obsessive devotion, influencing every single waking moment of their lives of this brief life on earth. But none of these billions of people who profess belief in God live their lives in this fashion, save for a very few. The majority believe in the usefulness of their beliefs, an earthly and practical utility, but they have no belief in any underlying reality.

I disagree. There are a lot of people that are of one religion or another, and can be shown to be failing its tenement, rules and structures. But that does not make belief into something that requires obsessive devotion. I would be happy to tell America that if it wants to consider itself a christian nation, it needs to be pacifistic... And that is where we might agree. But the failure is not with belief in god, in my opinion. The failure is a personal one to live up to whatever moral and behavioral standards one adopts. I make my own standards, believe in god on my own terms (because that is necessary, not that I got to make that choice). My level of belief, although high, and quite integral to my life, does not border on obsessive devotion.

Another way, I am not christian, and I agree that they should be trying very hard not to fight wars and not to get rich (because it is an interpretation of thier adopted rules). But I try very hard to live peace, and not to take anything more than I need... Those are good goals, and it is not a slight on god that most cannot follow them.

The,
-Pip

@ Dotard.

I think it's because that when enough people get together believing in God, it makes the idea seem a whole lot less silly.

As Sam Harris says, any lone subscriber to believe in God would be thought of as insane. It's when people get together that it's not only not thought upon as insane, but it's even thought of as a good thing by a great many.

So I think the reason why such rational people can believe it is because even they have been brainwashed, to some extent - by the idea that God is different, God is 'special', that it's a whole different ball-game and he is to be treated differently.

So they may rationally question just about everything else, but when it comes to God - they still somehow think it's a different matter entirely.

However, I definitely think it's an awful lot more common when they've (highly rational and intelligent people) been brought up to believe in God from such a young age. So it's more likely to have sunk in so much that regardless of how rational they are, they either don't bother to question it or when they try - it's just too deep a part of them.

Just to suggestion something to work upon, whether it's that accurate. I can't say I have personal experience!! Just to give some thoughts on the matter

EvF

People are indoctrinated when they are youngt to believe in God and religion. Their mind forms walls and patterns of thinking. As long as one train of thought works, the mind will become lazy and not look for something else that might work, hence if religion can work because God works outside the system of science, then miracles can and do happen. One experiment I do at work sometimes (I live in the Bible Belt and I am the token yankee atheist) is I tell people that I talked to a snake today. Incredibly enough they know it is either a lie, or I am speaking metaphorically. However, if you apply that same logic to the Bible... Planting seeds of doubt and allowing them to grow on their own.

The gist of my post was to say believers really do not believe in an underlying reality of their belief.

If they did, they would be 100% obsessive. We are talking about eternal bliss or eternal damnation. What is this brief lifetime compared to eternity? It's nothing, not even a drop in the bucket.

So if one actually believed in a underlying reality then they would spend every waking moment doing what their religion tells them to do whether it be door to door 'spreading the news' to flying airplanes into buildings to killing folks for suggesting they follow other Gods.

People don't do these things because they really don't believe in any underlying reality. This is why most religions can live in peace with one another. Everyone suspects, on some level, that those 'others' don't really believe any more than they do.

Compartmentalized indoctrination aside, on a conscience or unconscience level, people don't really believe what they are spouting to believe. Why do they do this? Read my post again, I'm just repeating myself here.

It's like Dennett speaks of. What they really do is believe in belief in God, they don't believe in God.

But: I agree with Eilonnwy about the compartmentalization.

I think there's another way at looking at the same thing. I think they might believe in God like a part of the time - they are too distracted by life to really deeply believe in it, or their subconscious just won't let them as a defense mechanism. I think their belief is more in the back of their mind rather than right at the front like a row of pikemen ready for some action.

EvF

Your idea is nonsense I believe Dotard. I'll try to explain why.

You talk of your own wild misconception of what belief is. Like many onlookers you assume belief entails extremes. To you a Christian acting in an un Christian way is somehow subhuman.. when the point is belief is addressing exactly that - humanity with all it's imperfections.

Belief in God is an aim at perfection. It is never perfection attained. Perfection attained = God.

People can be inspired into action at differing levels. Any unselfishness you achieve is not gained by your effort alone. Religiosity is cursed by God. Mere actions do not equal full commitment, only a sign of commitment. A person could be fully committed to their belief without any outward clue to an outsider necessary.

Doubt is a very important facet of belief. If you don't doubt everything you don't question and you take belief for granted. Say you had a wife and you loved her.. taking her for granted would be a capital offense. Weak faith is the result of not doubting. Questioning everything is vital. Testing belief is vital.

(July 21, 2009 at 6:35 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You talk of your own wild misconception of what belief is.

Please enlighten me and define 'belief'. Nevermind I'll do it.

Noun; The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

So tell me, how is my definition of 'belief' a wild misconception?

Quote:Like many onlookers you assume belief entails extremes.

It does.

Quote: To you a Christian acting in an un Christian way is somehow subhuman..

Never had I ever said nor implied such a thing.

Quote:Mere actions do not equal full commitment, only a sign of commitment. A person could be fully committed to their belief without any outward clue to an outsider necessary.

Bullshit. If you are fully committed to a belief your actions would show it.

Quote:Doubt is a very important facet of belief. If you don't doubt everything you don't question and you take belief for granted. Say you had a wife and you loved her.. taking her for granted would be a capital offense. Weak faith is the result of not doubting. Questioning everything is vital. Testing belief is vital.

Yeah so what. This has nothing to do with believing in an underlying reality of what you profess to believe.

Believer says I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God. And in it God says he will send a person to hell if that person doesn't do 'X'. Believer does not do 'X' therefore it is valid to say believer doesn't really believe in an underlying reality of that belief, i.e. God and Hell are real and the former will send me to the latter for not doing 'X'.

THAT is the meat of my post and not what the definition of 'belief' is.

[/quote]

Hell is a position in this life of separation from God, or in secular terms.. self destructive living. Heaven/ Believing in God is connection to God, or to a secularist.. living life to the full.

Therre is no line to cross that magically transforms you into an extreme positivist as you imagine. To suggest this is fantasy.

I agree, I think you misunderstand belief. There are examples of believers who are obsessive, as there are agnostics who are such as well... That does not make it a necessity of belief to be obsessive. I believe, an I am not obsessive. I am not even religious. I hate to use myself as an example, there are many people I know that fit that mold. Not at all religious, but a believer. The concept of eternity is one of many unanswered questions.

Quote:Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something

Like you guys mental acceptance and conviction that there is no god? Oh wait, we have been over this, to claim there is no god is not a claim, it is just obviously the way everyone knows things are...

Quote:It does.

As the basis of what Frodo and I seem to be trying to explain to you, it does not. Please go into more detail on your claim that 'it does'.

Quote:Bullshit. If you are fully committed to a belief your actions would show it.

And how are you to tell me that either my actions don't show it, or that I am not fully committed? My take is that if you try your best to do the right thing, you have acted your beliefs. It is an effort not a result. As I said, not all of us are book wielding christian... Although I give them more respect than you all.

Quote:Believer says I believe the bible is the inerrant word of God.

Only an abrehemic believer. What if I belive in God, but not that the bible is divinely inspired. That I accept the bible as theology, but I am (as I repeat) not a christian. I am a believer, and I say nothing of the sort you imply.

Quote:And in it God says he will send a person to hell if that person doesn't do 'X'. Believer does not do 'X' therefore it is valid to say believer doesn't really believe in an underlying reality of that belief, i.e. God and Hell are real and the former will send me to the latter for not doing 'X'.

What if there were someone who believed in god, but was unsure about hell, it existence or severity? See you guys assume (probably from you daily lives) that a believer is christian, but this is a big world we live in. So to make claims that all believers have what could be seen as some typical christian (typical believers, not typical of the belief) misunderstandings.

I forward that you just do not understand faith. May be that is what made you an atheist.

-Pip

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Oh yeah, EvF...

Quote:So I think the reason why such rational people can believe it is because even they have been brainwashed, to some extent - by the idea that God is different, God is 'special', that it's a whole different ball-game and he is to be treated differently.

We are not claiming that our god is special, and beyond rationale. It does not tnecisarily defy all reason, but it is God here guys, it should be a little outside of our scope of complete understanding. Like the things your sig said about Dennet, Do the cells know? If they could, do you think they argue over whether or not their is a cell god? Could a cell know it's body?

I am a very rational and causal person. I don't know everything about god though, it is her nature. I know she is, as well as you know she is not.
-Pip