So should a Christian Scientist employer be able to refuse any health insurance to his employees on the grounds that it goes against his religious beliefs?

These fucktards are whining about how their religious freedom is being violated, but it's not religious freedom to force others to accept your personal views on reproductive choices. And nobody's forcing anyone to give anyone else contraception, they're just requiring that they provide health insurance which covers it, just like any business.

Just like school prayer, this is all about control. It's not about forcing good Catholics to not use contraceptives (although I know many, many Catholics who do use various forms of birth control, my wife included), it's about forcing these beliefs upon anyone who works for them. They don't give a shit if a Protestant, Jew, or atheist doesn't have any moral or religious objection to contraceptives, they want to tell them that they shouldn't use them.

If we just had universal health care, we wouldn't have this problem. Well, except for the fundies whining about their tax dollars being used for other people's contraception or abortions.

I also don't understand why any secular-run health insurance wouldn't provide contraceptives as a "maintenance" or "prevention" method when it is FAR more expensive for the insured to have kids.

Of coarse you guys would disagree with the Catholic Church, it's what you do even is the church is right, stop being bias and look into their objection. I have no problem with the contraceptive program, nor do any of the Protestant Churches I know of.
The Catholic Church has always been against birth control, either through abortion or contraceptives. It's their right to hold this belief without being criticized for it, you guys do not like being criticized for no belief in God. the church believes that it is against God given life to use contraceptives and it aids the unmarried to engage in sex and thus a greater chance of spreading diseases, which these diseases such as AIDS cost an extreme amount of money, causing you and I to pay more for health care insurance. The Freedom of Religion is the first amendment to our Constitution and birth control is not a right given by our Constitution, a non given right should never ever be allowed to over ride a given right. Now I'm not a supporter of the Catholic Church, but they are given this right and it should not be infringed upon.

You completely missed what I said earlier, didn't you, GC?

(February 15, 2012 at 3:18 pm)Godschild Wrote: It's their right to hold this belief without being criticized for it, you guys do not like being criticized for no belief in God.

Italicized the part that's true, bolded the part that isn't.

Further, no one is imposing birth control on anyone. If people were being forced to take birth control it wouldn't just be a religious issue, there would be people from all walks of life up in arms about something like that. You're blowing this out of proportion based on a misconception of what the law allows and how it applies to businesses operated by religious organizations. No ones rights are being infringed upon.

What a church does in it's business transactions and what it does in it's spiritual transactions are entirely different things. This is why there are so many provisions with regards to the law and religious organizations in the first place. There is the churches "business exposure", which must be in accordance with law if they are to avail themselves of the benefits of law (or if they wish to avoid the penalties of law). Then there is the churches "spiritual exposure", which is a ticket they write for themselves and is protected.

"Give unto Caesar".

That's what I tried to specify.

What the church is being "forced" to do is treat the business portion of their church like a fucking business, which means if they hire employees, they have to offer the same services employees should be offered elsewhere. They can't decide that just because they don't agree with it they're not going to offer it. This is applicable across the religious spectrum, as churches and synagogues and mosques of all sorts have various reasons for denying contraceptive use.

The church has the right to hold the belief that contraceptives are a sin against God. The church does not have the right to withhold certain insurance coverage from paid employees based on this belief. In other words, they can believe this all they want, which is their right. But they don't have the right to impose that belief upon anyone else. It's not the church's business if their employees use contraception or not.

I never understood what the whole Christian complaint against contraception is anyway. Apparently their god was so powerful he could create the entire universe thousands of years ago, but today he's so impotent that he can't make a pregnancy happen if a woman takes a pill.

(February 15, 2012 at 3:51 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: ...which means if they hire employees, they have to offer the same services employees should be offered elsewhere.

This is not only about what to offer. This is about being forced to put money into something you don't believe in. Would you like, say, your money going to a Christian missionary association because the government deems the spreading of Christianity in Muslim countries a way of making peace? Birth control does not aid a medical condition. It is purely optional. No one needs it, so why should an organization be required to offer it, and in the meantime cater to people's lack of sexual self-control? I personally believe birth control is all well and good, but you have to respect people's right not to pay for something they believe to be on par with murder (all sins being equal). If Obama let it pass, Catholics would be putting money in offering plates knowing a fraction of what they give is going to exactly what the priest says not to give to. Priest: "If you feel moved by God, please give. Remember, 1% of everything will be put to contraceptives, but another 1% will be put to printing anti-contraceptive pamphlets."

Quote:but on the other hand it really does seem like a violation of freedom of religion.

Why?

If there was a religion which thought that throwing a virgin into a fucking volcano was a sacred ritual would you still think that the government telling them they couldn't was a violation of their "freedom?"

(February 15, 2012 at 9:10 pm)Undeceived Wrote: This is not only about what to offer. This is about being forced to put money into something you don't believe in.

I wasn't paying attention and didn't realize I was talking to a Christian. Sorry - the government shouldn't be about "belief".

Quote:Would you like, say, your money going to a Christian missionary association because the government deems the spreading of Christianity in Muslim countries a way of making peace?

No, because our government is supposed to be secular, and we have secular ways of making peace. Irrelevant.

Quote:Birth control does not aid a medical condition. It is purely optional.

http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/f...ill?page=2

Both pages. I realize that you probably don't think any of those are "necessary" but then again you probably don't bleed out of your vagina every month by the way you're talking.

Quote: No one needs it, so why should an organization be required to offer it, and in the meantime cater to people's lack of sexual self-control?

Really? You think denial of contraceptives helps people's "lack of sexual self-control"? You've got to be goddamn kidding me.

Quote: I personally believe birth control is all well and good, but you have to respect people's right not to pay for something they believe to be on par with murder (all sins being equal).

You have to respect a person's right to get adequate health care coverage even if they work for an organization that doesn't share their exact values.

Quote:If Obama let it pass, Catholics would be putting money in offering plates knowing a fraction of what they give is going to exactly what the priest says not to give to. Priest: "If you feel moved by God, please give. Remember, 1% of everything will be put to contraceptives, but another 1% will be put to printing anti-contraceptive pamphlets.

Don't give money.

I give money every week to shit I don't necessarily agree with. It's called being a citizen of this country and paying taxes to belong to this club. And if I do that, I damn well want the options that other citizens get.

Wait till we start taxing these rich and greedy motherfuckers - birth control will seem like a morning fart compared to that shit storm.