(March 4, 2012 at 2:14 am)whateverist Wrote:

(March 4, 2012 at 1:44 am)chipan Wrote:

(March 3, 2012 at 11:17 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You can read the minds of the dead? Convenient, because I am forced to rely on little more than their words.


Evidence?

Obviously you lack in empathy. Read the context. This quote is used to illustrate the point that many will claim to be righteous but they are liers. We are not to judge people by their words, but by their fruit. This quote according to the context is not meant to be a stastical accurate illustration, but to contain a message of advice.

Assuming that the bible was written to make sense, that could be so. Then again, that's sort of what is in question around here.

You can always make claims but they mean nothing without evidence. What do you find in the bible that doesn't make sense? I can try to shed some light if you are interested in understanding it.

The premise of the OP is that Christians by definition want to stay in ignorance, presumably to hold beliefs above inquiry. I do not see that, because clearly not all do. Evidenced by the fact that some become atheists, Bhuddists, etc. Also some people who once were atheist in their quest for knowledge became Christian. The quest for knowledge does not always have to proceed from a materialist position.

(February 29, 2012 at 10:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Your grandfather probably deserves more credit for the attributes that made such an impression on you than any inspiration by faith.

Oh yes, I wouldn't disagree at all. I was responding to something mentioned by another poster about most Christians they met being unpleasant and that being a force that drove them out of the religion. But that isn't the case for everyone, and I was offering a counterexample. When most Christians you know are good-hearted and generous, it tends to make people who run into them view their religion in a positive light (even though, as you very insightfully stated, it usually has more to do with their own positive personality traits). When you associate positive things with Christianity, the faith, in turn, looks a more "attractive" thing to "stay" in. So that was my answer to the OP's question.
But, re: the remark I was responding to about most Christians being unpleasant, it works both ways. The stifling, dogmatic way my father raised me did a lot to drive me toward atheism. Like all revealed religions, Christianity has a lot of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" that are to be unquestionably adhered to - so calling Christianity dogmatic is valid. But even if it weren't dogmatic, if most Christians I met were narrow-minded and tried to limit my imagination, curiosity, and skepticism, I would begin to form a more negative impression of Christianity.

(March 4, 2012 at 2:17 am)chipan Wrote: You can always make claims but they mean nothing without evidence. What do you find in the bible that doesn't make sense? I can try to shed some light if you are interested in understanding it.

Look at that, I knew I wasn't wasting my time.

Evidence?

(March 4, 2012 at 5:49 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The premise of the OP is that Christians by definition want to stay in ignorance, presumably to hold beliefs above inquiry. I do not see that, because clearly not all do. Evidenced by the fact that some become atheists, Bhuddists, etc. Also some people who once were atheist in their quest for knowledge became Christian. The quest for knowledge does not always have to proceed from a materialist position.

Just because someone is Christian and does not convert doesn't mean that they are not truth seekers. Isaac Newton was a Christian scientist and the father of physics and calculus. If he was not interested in seeking the truth he would not have founded these things. The church supported scientists like these and in their schools required science to be taken. It is true we believe the origin of the earth has been revealed to us by God but we still seek truth in how it happened hence the existence of creation cosmological models.

Just so long as whatever we discover doesn't contradict your tired fairy tales. What's this about believing? I thought you said you could demonstrate the veracity of your claims by means of scientific evidence? What belief is required?

Evidence?

(March 4, 2012 at 5:49 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: The premise of the OP is that Christians by definition want to stay in ignorance, presumably to hold beliefs above inquiry. I do not see that, because clearly not all do. Evidenced by the fact that some become atheists, Bhuddists, etc. Also some people who once were atheist in their quest for knowledge became Christian. The quest for knowledge does not always have to proceed from a materialist position.

There is so much evidence contradicting and disproving the various myths of Christianity that anyone who still believes in it is just being extremely irrational.

When you try to argue with most Christians, in defending their viewpoint they normally make arguments that have long been disproved or never made sense to begin with.

Its like Christians, just through force of will, have completely scrambled up part of their brain that promotes logical thinking.

Their brain is working fine. If it weren't, it would be more difficult to indoctrinate them. It isn't that a believers brain is malfunctioning, it;s functioning exactly as it should, and the claims of religion have been refined to take advantage of that.

Consider this, how would you convince a person of a creator god if their mind completely rebelled at the thought of causal agents? If they simply refused to consider cause and effect. Good luck.

(March 4, 2012 at 8:38 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Their brain is working fine. If it weren't, it would be more difficult to indoctrinate them. It isn't that a believers brain is malfunctioning, it;s functioning exactly as it should, and the claims of religion have been refined to take advantage of that.

Consider this, how would you convince a person of a creator god if their mind completely rebelled at the thought of causal agents? If they simply refused to consider cause and effect. Good luck.

Surely a person's brain if it were working fine should promote rational thinking over just believing in some fairytale they were told as a kid when all the evidence contradicts it.

They tried to indoctrinate me but even as a kid the whole thing seemed completely ridiculous.

In all honesty I think all Christians are just mental and have a screw loose somewhere, to believe what they do.

I don't understand why anyone would believe in a godman who rose from the dead and was crucified so that our sins could be forgiven? Why would you?

It ain't about what's right, only what works. That's how we're wired. Our minds are screwing us at every turn (and we know it). Working as intended. This is why introspection alone, relying solely on our thoughts, is a poor way to investigate the world beyond them. At best it is unreliable, at worst, completely unproductive.