(March 17, 2012 at 3:33 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: As such, we've seen fit to replace this system by another one.

Already? I must have missed that...

(March 17, 2012 at 5:41 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote:

(March 17, 2012 at 3:33 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: As such, we've seen fit to replace this system by another one.

Already? I must have missed that...

Well, you can have your democracy.
As I said, I only care about the wellbeing of my own people as to provide them with an honest political system.
Democracy is a very dishonest, and fraudelent system, that rewards people for lying.

(March 17, 2012 at 10:09 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(March 17, 2012 at 5:41 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote:

(March 17, 2012 at 3:33 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: As such, we've seen fit to replace this system by another one.

Already? I must have missed that...

Well, you can have your democracy.
As I said, I only care about the wellbeing of my own people as to provide them with an honest political system.
Democracy is a very dishonest, and fraudelent system, that rewards people for lying.

Like your system is lie and fraud proof... puff your chest out some more

We're all well enough rewarded for lying regardless of any political system, or we wouldn't do it as often, even to ourselves tares at Mehm:.

(March 17, 2012 at 10:56 am)reverendjeremiah Wrote:

(March 17, 2012 at 10:09 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(March 17, 2012 at 5:41 am)Rokcet Scientist Wrote:

(March 17, 2012 at 3:33 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: As such, we've seen fit to replace this system by another one.

Already? I must have missed that...

Well, you can have your democracy.
As I said, I only care about the wellbeing of my own people as to provide them with an honest political system.
Democracy is a very dishonest, and fraudelent system, that rewards people for lying.

Like your system is lie and fraud proof... puff your chest out some more

Our system tells no lies.
We only speak the truth, unlike some people who cling to lies.

Quote:We're all well enough rewarded for lying regardless of any political system, or we wouldn't do it as often, even to ourselves tares at Mehm:.

I do not lie to myself. If I did, I'd be very akin to you guys.

(March 17, 2012 at 1:35 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Our system tells no lies.

BULLSHIT! Either you are a fool or you are lying.

Quote:We only speak the truth, unlike some people who cling to lies.

Yeah, I was right on both of them. You are a foolish liar.


At least with anarchism the fraud and lies are not instituted and funded by your tax money. At least with anarchism the liars and fraud makers are not given power, or that you have to choose between one liar and one fraud...or, in your case, be permanently stuck with a lying fraud tyrant in power over you for life.

You on the other hand would empower a lifelong lying fraud tyrant, and then claim he doesnt lie or cause fraud even though it would be obvious that he does such...all in the name of preserving Turkish nationalism.


Foolish liar... just like all the other fascists.

Quote:BULLSHIT! Either you are a fool or you are lying.

You do not even know our system, so maybe you should shut up and listen for a while, maybe you can learn something.

Quote:At least with anarchism the fraud and lies are not instituted and funded by your tax money. At least with anarchism the liars and fraud makers are not given power, or that you have to choose between one liar and one fraud...or, in your case, be permanently stuck with a lying fraud tyrant in power over you for life.

In anarchy, everyone is free to overthrow the other. There is no law and order, and therefore, there is no need to lie either, there is only barbarism.

Quote:You on the other hand would empower a lifelong lying fraud tyrant, and then claim he doesnt lie or cause fraud even though it would be obvious that he does such...all in the name of preserving Turkish nationalism.

Who is this lifelong lying fraud tyrant that you speak of? We do not have such a person on the top of our heads. We do not idolize leaders, as leaders are at the end, there to serve the Turks, not to be served by the Turks.
Throughout the ages of Turkish history, no ruler has ever been above the law, nor had the autority to flaunt the law. Even those who were given supreme powers by their people, knew that the people were able to take it away. As our great forefather Atatürk said: "The people can make me leave if they want to."

Besides, Turkish nationalism cannot be preserved if the people do not want to preserve it. If I wouldn't be a staunch nationalist, if my peers at the ocak wouldn't be staunch nationalists like myself, who would be there to preserve our people, our language and our culture? If there weren't the multitudes who stand still while they pass by a school where our national anthem is sung, who would be there to preserve our spirit?

It is the people who empower nationalist ideologies, not leaders. This, you cannot understand.
Even Hitler came to power with the support of the German people.
If the Germans did not support him, than who did?
Just like that, Turkish nationalism is kept alive by the people, for the people.
Not by leaders for personal gain.

Quote:Foolish liar... just like all the other fascists.

You are an old man, that's why I don't want to be disrespectful, but you're slowly getting on my nerves with your generic "omg fascist" bullshit.
I think that your anarchism only goes as far as your words go. Nowhere.

Quote:You do not even know our system, so maybe you should shut up and listen for a while, maybe you can learn something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Turkism

Quote:In anarchy, everyone is free to overthrow the other.

"Overthrow"? Then that really isnt an anarchy is it? An anarchy is without a hierarchy. If someone overthrows someone, then that is no longer an anarchy and is now a usurpation. Please educate yourself to the meaning of such words and terms before you engage in conversation about them.

Quote:There is no law and order, and therefore, there is no need to lie either, there is only barbarism.

There is no governmental law, but as far as order you are flat out wrong. What you are describing is NON-anarchists coming into an anarchal structure to wreak havok and usurp power from the people. Those "barbarians" care nothing of anarchy and wish to place themselves into supreme authority over people. An anarchist is not a barbarian. An anarchist wishes EVERYONE to have equal freedom such as they. An anarchist lives by the motto "live and let live", and thus a natural order of mutual society arises from the reciprocal respect of differences without resorting to violence or force.

These barbarians you speak of.... they arent anarchists.

Quote:Who is this lifelong lying fraud tyrant that you speak of? We do not have such a person on the top of our heads. We do not idolize leaders, as leaders are at the end, there to serve the Turks, not to be served by the Turks.
Throughout the ages of Turkish history, no ruler has ever been above the law, nor had the autority to flaunt the law. Even those who were given supreme powers by their people, knew that the people were able to take it away. As our great forefather Atatürk said: "The people can make me leave if they want to."

Besides, Turkish nationalism cannot be preserved if the people do not want to preserve it. If I wouldn't be a staunch nationalist, if my peers at the ocak wouldn't be staunch nationalists like myself, who would be there to preserve our people, our language and our culture? If there weren't the multitudes who stand still while they pass by a school where our national anthem is sung, who would be there to preserve our spirit?

It is the people who empower nationalist ideologies, not leaders. This, you cannot understand.
Even Hitler came to power with the support of the German people.
If the Germans did not support him, than who did?
Just like that, Turkish nationalism is kept alive by the people, for the people.
Not by leaders for personal gain.

nationalism is a disease. It is false and a lie. You are not indiginous to those areas, nor are you some special "race". Your entire nationalism is a delusion that would be used to grant a false authority over a tract of land that nobody, no animal, nor plant truly owns or would ever own. Land cannot be owned, but people can fool others into thinking of such fraud. Your turkish nationalism is kept alive just like santa clause and the easter bunny are kept alive. In the thoughts and delusions of greedy and vain people. You do not gain my pity. You have earned my disdain.

Quote:You are an old man, that's why I don't want to be disrespectful, but you're slowly getting on my nerves with your generic "omg fascist" bullshit.
I think that your anarchism only goes as far as your words go. Nowhere.

Im only 40, and I bet I can still kick an ass pretty good. Nationalism IS fascism numb nuts! Your apologetics dont mean shit to me because I know better. I dont "omg fascism" to you, so dont try to juvenile my posts to you about this. Have all the dreams you want of a racially "owned" home land all you want. You will have opposition, not to mention science and fact will NOT be on your side.

As far as your opinion on anarchism: Shit, you dont even understand what it is.

Quote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Turkism

And may I ask you, have you ever read İsa Yusuf Akçura, Ziya Gökalp, H. N. Atsız, İsa Yusuf Alptekin, İsmail Gaspıralı and other Turkist intellectuals?
I guess not. Read "Üç Tarz-ı Siyaset".

The wikipedia article is inaccurate at many points: let's take for example the take on ""Pan-Turkic" historiography".

Quote:Various groups including Parthians, Scythians, Sumerians, Indians, Akkadians, Elamites, Anzani, Kassites, Carians, Protohittites, Hittites, Mittani, Hurrians and others have been claimed as of Turkic origin by nationalist writers.[33] Lynn Meskell notes:[34] "Pan-Turkists who later became the ideologists of the racist movements of the present times, were rather pleased with the idea of affiliating Sumerians and Hittites to Turkish. Another historical theory developed under government sponsorship in those days held that all great civilizations — Chinese, Indian, Muslim, even ancient Egyptian and Etruscan — were of Turkish origin.[21]

I've read many of the journals, poems and stories, written by the famous pan-turkist intellectuals that I've mentioned above, and I have yet to meet even a single paragraph that advocates a this load of bullcrap I see on wikipedia-most certainly it was written by someone who sees our ideology as a threat to his own means.

Anoter example on how fraudelent the damn article and it's sources are:
"The Turkish View of Armenian History: A Vanishing Nation"[35] he notes that the Turkish government: "has been systematically changing the names of villages to make them more Turkish. Any name which does not have a meaning in Turkish, or does not sound Turkish, whatever its origin, is replaced by a banal name assigned by a bureau in Ankara, with no respect to local conditions or traditions." He also notes that the Turkish government: "presented ambiguously, without clear identification of their builders, or as examples of the influence of the superiority of Turkish architecture. In all this, a clear line is evident: the Armenian presence is to be consigned, as far as possible, to oblivion.".[35]"
Indeed, the Turkish government has also assigned new names to many places that had a Turkish name. For example, "Bozok" was the name for the city of Yozgat, and the name of the province in Ottoman times, whereas the name Bozok itself comes from a tribe of the Oghuz Turks who have emigrated to central anatolia.
It has been changed, just like many other place names were changed.
Truthfully, some people still cannot get over the fact that these lands are ours. Like for example, Greeks can't still get over the fact that the city of Istanbul is the official name of Istanbul. They choose to use "constantinople" in their own official documents.

Likewise, some people just make up historical names for their historical regions. Kurdish nationalists like to call the city of Diyarbakır "Amed", after the armenian name for the city, however, the city was never known as Amed amongst the moslems of the region, as it's name suggested that it was founded by a moslem general called "Bakir", with "Diyar" being a persian name for "Land", meaning "Land of Bakir". It was the official name for the city even at Seljuk times.

Read about the famous panturkist intellectuals and their writings, and then, come to me and tell me that you know something about Turkism, and what it advocates.

Quote:"Overthrow"? Then that really isnt an anarchy is it? An anarchy is without a hierarchy. If someone overthrows someone, then that is no longer an anarchy and is now a usurpation. Please educate yourself to the meaning of such words and terms before you engage in conversation about them.

And therefore, it's not possible. A hierarchy exists in nature aswell, and will continue to exist in a system without a government, where people with less intellect, or muscle will band under a person that is smarter, or stronger than themselves. Even the most basic form of tribe has a leader, and a sort of a hierarchy. You think that you can bring about anarchy anywhere, ask yourself. Who will make the decisions?
You?
Everyone?
The meaning is well known to me.

Quote:There is no governmental law, but as far as order you are flat out wrong. What you are describing is NON-anarchists coming into an anarchal structure to wreak havok and usurp power from the people. Those "barbarians" care nothing of anarchy and wish to place themselves into supreme authority over people. An anarchist is not a barbarian. An anarchist wishes EVERYONE to have equal freedom such as they. An anarchist lives by the motto "live and let live", and thus a natural order of mutual society arises from the reciprocal respect of differences without resorting to violence or force.

These barbarians you speak of.... they arent anarchists.

If there is no government, no ruling body, who maintains and enforces order?
If there is no hierarchy, who will guarantee and protect your freedoms?
Equal freedoms, no one opposes that, but I'm certain that anarchy will not guarantee you your freedoms, as there is nothing to protect them.
Live and let live. And how do you think that extends on property?
But I think you also count on a communal lifestyle to work.

Quote:nationalism is a disease. It is false and a lie. You are not indiginous to those areas, nor are you some special "race". Your entire nationalism is a delusion that would be used to grant a false authority over a tract of land that nobody, no animal, nor plant truly owns or would ever own. Land cannot be owned, but people can fool others into thinking of such fraud. Your turkish nationalism is kept alive just like santa clause and the easter bunny are kept alive. In the thoughts and delusions of greedy and vain people. You do not gain my pity. You have earned my disdain.

Do I live by your pity, that I should die with your disdain, foolish old man?
Foolish as to trust people who have no blood association with eachother to watch eachother's backs? Nationalism is the cure to the world's problems.
It was nationalism which gave us the power to free ourselves from the grasp of the imperialists.
It isn't about land, as I do not live in where my grandfather's father used to live. But I live amongst my people, at the very least. I could be living in Turkmenistan, and I'd still feel at home, as that land is occupied by people of my own blood.
Your claims that nobody can own a land sound like noble savage garbage.
Even animals have their own territories to which they lay claim on and protect it with brute force against any invaders.

Besides, as I said, it certainly doesn't matter if we're natives to these lands. What matters is that we're here now. Turan's borders have been extended to these lands a thousand years ago when Alp Arslan the great has broken the back of the Byzantines at Manzikert. It was than that it was decided that the saga of the Turk would extend itself further into Europe, and make a name for himself.
You, on the other hand, claim that humanity is one or something. If so, why are there so many different languages, cultures and races?
And I think that "diversity is our strength" was some sort of a liberal slogan of yours, which sounds fine by me.

Our nationalism is kept alive by the existence of our people. Unless you wipe us all off, you cannot destroy the national consciousness that we Turks, and many other ethnicities around the earth have.
It is this consciousness that drives people who are of the same blood, same language and same culture to band together. This is how it was meant to be, and how it will be ever after.
Your dreams have already been proven false with the fall of imperiums like the British Empire, Soviet Union and the Ottoman empire.

Quote:Im only 40, and I bet I can still kick an ass pretty good. Nationalism IS fascism numb nuts! Your apologetics dont mean shit to me because I know better. I dont "omg fascism" to you, so dont try to juvenile my posts to you about this. Have all the dreams you want of a racially "owned" home land all you want. You will have opposition, not to mention science and fact will NOT be on your side.

As far as your opinion on anarchism: Shit, you dont even understand what it is.

Whatever, old man. I think that you're doing nothing but preaching the old anarchist crap of calling everyone besides you a fascist.
You do "omg fascism" against me, as you obviously don't know anything besides that.
And well, I don't know who will oppose us. Russia will most certainly do that, everyone has their own goals as we do have our own.
However, I don't know how you figure that science and fact, will not be on our side. The only fact I know, is that we Turks need to stick together if we wish to form a power to free us from the oppression of the likes of you, who claim to advocate equal rights, but still live out the fruitful benefits of an unequal world. We are honest, and we actually take action to bring about this noble goal into life.
I don't know what about this fact really surrounds you with fear. And I don't know how science has a part in this equation, it is simply a tool to our goal to greatness.

Quote:And may I ask you, have you ever read İsa Yusuf Akçura, Ziya Gökalp, H. N. Atsız, İsa Yusuf Alptekin, İsmail Gaspıralı and other Turkist intellectuals?
I guess not. Read "Üç Tarz-ı Siyaset".....

Why do i need to read them? All they will do is argue that somehow their "race" gives them a "right" over the land. they dont own that land. Look at your long drawn out history post of how the land has been renamed this and that, and you dont agree with it being this or that...

YOU...CANT....OWN...LAND...

therefore nationalism is just like believing in god...it is a delusion.

Quote:Truthfully, some people still cannot get over the fact that these lands are ours

Let me guess: ALLAH gave you those lands?

amiright?

did your imaginary friend tell you that you own those lands? No? So you are claiming a "racial" tie to the land? How does your "race" give you claim to that land?

Like I said before..nationalism is a sickness. Thinking that you own land is a delusion. Mehmet, you are sorely ignorant and delusional.

Quote:And therefore, it's not possible. A hierarchy exists in nature aswell

Really? Besides an alpha males forced ability to rape as many females as he wants, exactly where do you find heirarchy in nature? The queen of a hive isnt even seen to have authority. She is a prisoner of forced rape and reproduction. I suggest you get an education about these things before you try to hold a conversation about them and make yourself look more of an ass than you already do.

Quote:If there is no government, no ruling body, who maintains and enforces order?

humanity

Quote:If there is no hierarchy, who will guarantee and protect your freedoms?

With no heirarchy, then freedom has been acheived. Insert a heirarchy and freedom has been removed. You are delusional and have been convinced that slavery equals freedom.

Break your chains.

Quote:Live and let live. And how do you think that extends on property?

Have you been paying attention? There is no such thing as "property". It is a delusion. You dont own it. Nobody can own it.

Quote:Do I live by your pity, that I should die with your disdain, foolish old man?

Most nationalists will kill their elderly because they see them as a drain on society.

Quote:Foolish as to trust people who have no blood association with eachother to watch eachother's backs? Nationalism is the cure to the world's problems.

Look at the racism come out of this one. Racist fascist who hints at genocide. You fucking disgust me.

Quote:It was nationalism which gave us the power to free ourselves from the grasp of the imperialists.

right...LOL...because nationalism has NOTHING to do with imperialism...LOL...

Quote:as that land is occupied by people of my own blood.

I am of your blood. Everyone on this planet is of your blood. You are a scientific illiterate.

Quote:Your claims that nobody can own a land sound like noble savage garbage.

Right...because Jesus, er, I mean Allah granted your people the ownership of the land. Yet strangely turks have not been able to keep it. Gee, I wonder why?

Maybe because they dont own it?

Quote:Even animals have their own territories to which they lay claim on and protect it with brute force against any invaders.

Oh, I see. It isnt because of Allah or blood...its because your people have pissed all over Turkey. That makes it yours.
Last I checked animals piss on everything and consider everything their property...just like you consider Turkey your property...yet you call ME a savage.
Fascism and racism sucks a donkey dick