(March 18, 2012 at 7:30 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 7:08 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 15, 2012 at 9:21 am)Mosrhun Wrote: We all know this story is bullshit, but I just had a debate with a Christian about this issue and it's still fresh on my mind so here it goes. A foreword, math is not my strong point and this was a quick write up as I'm currently at work, so if someone more mathematically inclined would like to fix my values go right ahead.

As of 2010, there are 1.7 million known species on Earth. Let's give the Christians the benefit of the doubt and remove Fish (31,300), Crustaceans (47,000), Corals (2,175) and Algae (13,201). Let's also condense the insects down to say, 25,000 from 1,000,000 for space sake. This lowers to number of species to a paltry 631,324. Double that and you have 1,262,648 animals. Each animal requires it's own space and it's own food to survive for 40 days and 40 nights. Some animals are much larger then others and some are much smaller. To reach an easy medium of space needed, let's say that all these animals need approximately the space and food a human would need. A human could survive for a little over a month in say, a 6x4' (24sq ft) room or so. Using this logic, the Ark would have needed to be 30,303,552sq feet just to store the animals. That's 1.08699sq miles. This is before you take in to account the amount of food and fresh water needed to sustain all these animals. Now obviously the boat would have been boat shaped and not a square. If you just take the 6 foot rooms needed and multiply it by the number of species you end up with a ship that is 1434 miles long, almost half the distance across the United States...

It's ridiculous to think that Noah would have been able to build something this massive, gather all these creatures, gather all the supplies, keep 1,262,648 fed and hydrated and managed to clean the feces from said animals several times a day.

If you are trying to make sense of the story of Noah as a logistical account of how to save the planet and the various species from ELI like a global flood, then you miss the whole point of the story. The logistical account is lacking for one reason. The story of Noah was not about one man defying God and saved the planet through his planning and efforts. The Story of Noah and the boat He built was the story of the extraordinary faith that was required of one man, to deem creation salvageable. Noah did not save creation through His efforts (his boat) Noah provided the faith that prompted God to save a remnant from righteous wrath.

so the same God that call creation into existence, call the animals to the Ark, sustained them on the Ark, had them repopulated their original habitats. Understand the ark was not the boat Noah built. It was the faith that fueled the whole effort. Remember Noah did not save creation though his efforts, God did.

Which animals did Noah not bother putting on the boat? I mean there are billions of species, and billions is a big number of species to collect - it would take comfortably longer than Noah's lifespan to even collect a fraction of them. Do you think maybe he rescued cute tiger cubs, and fluffy puppies, and baby giraffes, and missed out maggots, moths and stick insects?

Why bother putting anything on the Ark? god could have simply created them all again.

Complete waste of time if you ask me.

Well the last time I went to the zoo I do not see dragons, unicorns, pixies, saber tooth tigers or mammoths.. The list can go on if you like.

To the second point you made, Noah did not collect even one animal. According to the account in Genesis God brought all of the "salvageable animals" to him. As far as why? again this is not a tale of logistics. This is a story about faith. That said you are right in that God could have created everything again, and who is to say He did not back fill a few gaps.. But if He simply started over rather than make the effort to stress the importance of Faith, much would be lost in the understanding of Christ works on the cross.

(March 18, 2012 at 7:56 pm)Drich Wrote: Well the last time I went to the zoo I do not see dragons, unicorns, pixies, saber tooth tigers or mammoths.. The list can go on if you like.

No fucking shit.

(March 18, 2012 at 7:42 pm)Ace Otana Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 7:34 pm)Drich Wrote: Why would an immortal seek to preserve a temporary existence in the face of an eternal one? Only those who worship this life with all of their being see death as an absolute or take offense when one does not fear it as they do. Know God does not sacredly value your understanding of life as you do. For He sees our deaths in this life as are our births into eternity. Why prolong our labor pains any longer than we need to endure them? If you have made your choice or had the oppertunity to do so then the purpose of your time here has passed.

Do you fear going into oblivion when you die? That you're nothing but a biological speck? Religion always comes back to death. That tells me a lot you know.
I live as long as I can because as far as I know, it's the only one I've got. Not going to waste it hoping for another one.

Fear is what drives much of the religious impulse. Fear of death, fear of the unknown, fear of no absolute moral values, fear of uncertainty, fear of social rejection, fear of hell, fear of god. That's why they always think they have you when you admit that you don't know something. It has taken me a while but I finally feel OK with saying that I don't know the answer to some questions. I don't need to know in order to lead a good life. Atheism is bravery in the face of fear.

(March 18, 2012 at 7:41 pm)Napoleon Wrote: Let me put it this way. If god is truly omniscient, then he does not need to test us. What is the point of testing if you know the outcome? The only alternative I can see is that god does NOT know the outcome. But that would leave your entire theology with a big gaping crater.

That god is supposedly omniscient yet 'tests' us anyway, would suggest he is malevolent.

I have already answer this "question" by pointing out the "test" is not for Him, but the following generation of those being tested.

Now Allow me to rephrase, Who is scrutinizing the results of the test in Question? God? or a member of one of the "following generations?"

---

[quote='Ace Otana' pid='256871' dateline='1332114163']

Quote:Do you fear going into oblivion when you die? That you're nothing but a biological speck?

No not at all i welcome the freedom that comes with not being held accountable for my life choices.

Quote:Religion always comes back to death. That tells me a lot you know.
I live as long as I can because as far as I know, it's the only one I've got. Not going to waste it hoping for another one.

fair enough..

Understand this is not a message on your after life. i am just trying to help you understand the Story of Noah that is being misrepresented in this thread.

(March 18, 2012 at 7:56 pm)Drich Wrote: Well the last time I went to the zoo I do not see dragons, unicorns, pixies, saber tooth tigers or mammoths.. The list can go on if you like.

What are you trying to prove here? That you don't know the difference between made up beings and extinct animals?

Quote:To the second point you made, Noah did not collect even one animal. According to the account in Genesis God brought all of the "salvageable animals" to him.

Why would god worry about what was "salvageable" He's god, he can do anything, nothing is unsalvageable. He can create or destroy anything... As far as why? again this is not a tale of logistics. This is a story about faith.

Quote:That said you are right in that God could have created everything again, and who is to say He did not back fill a few gaps.. But if He simply started over rather than make the effort to stress the importance of Faith, much would be lost in the understanding of Christ works on the cross.

Basically you like all christians use these silly, nonsensical stories to show that god thinks faith in him is important.

All god has to do is show himself so we KNOW he's real rather than believe he's real. Problem solved. What use is belief if you can have knowledge?

So, you aren't even a very good xtian.....

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV

Quote:Genesis 22
Abraham Tested
1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

God is doing the testing, laddie. Pretty odd behavior for a guy who is supposed to know the result ahead of time.

Methinks you art full of shit.

(March 18, 2012 at 7:56 pm)Drich Wrote: Well the last time I went to the zoo I do not see dragons, unicorns, pixies, saber tooth tigers or mammoths.. The list can go on if you like.

What? Mine has all of those plus the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, Yeties, Cyclops, Mermaids, The Easter Bunny and Winnie the Pooh.

Your zoo sucks.

(March 18, 2012 at 8:10 pm)Minimalist Wrote: So, you aren't even a very good xtian.....

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=NIV

Quote:Genesis 22
Abraham Tested
1 Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

God is doing the testing, laddie. Pretty odd behavior for a guy who is supposed to know the result ahead of time.

Methinks you art full of shit.

Wow, it's a sick story alright. A story about a mentally ill man who nearly killed his son based on paranoid schizophrenic delusions.

Thankfully, we can diagnose mental illness these days, and this gives a clue to why none of these "godly signs" happen in this day and age - his messengers are locked up in a padded cell with medication.

(March 18, 2012 at 8:12 pm)Loading Please Wait Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 7:56 pm)Drich Wrote: Well the last time I went to the zoo I do not see dragons, unicorns, pixies, saber tooth tigers or mammoths.. The list can go on if you like.

What? Mine has all of those plus the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, Yeties, Cyclops, Mermaids, The Easter Bunny and Winnie the Pooh.

Your zoo sucks.

Many a true word and all that:



London Zoo Winnie the Pooh Statue

(March 18, 2012 at 7:49 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: Why bother having a real physical life in which you die, to be born into an immaterial, eternal life afterwards.Why not simply be born into eternal heaven, and skip the life/death bit? god sure created things the hard way.

The same reason we are told of Adam and Eve's fall from Grace and the Fall of Satan. Because the majority of sentients created in the presents of God as some point in Eternity past, were tempted by sin (anything outside of the expressed will of God.) No matter what God offered them.

Quote:One thing we know about nature and anything is that it always takes the simplest route.

We are taking the only route that will yield a solid Heavenly populace of people who want to be with God with every fiber of their being.

Quote:Your god is at complete odds to this. He's made up you know.

God is made up because YOU do not understand this fundamental principle?

Quote:So Noah managed to get all the animals onto an unfeasibly small boat within an unfeasibly short timespan (IE within his lifetime) due to god's help? Is that what you are saying? god made the impossible possible? With magic?

I am saying the story of the ARK was not about the boat Noah built (Or so say the writer of Hebrews) The Ark was an exercise in the faith needed to save Man from the righteous wrath of God. Again the story is not one of practical logistics. So I can openly and honestly say I do not know what God did exactly, just that He did it.

Quote:How is this different to Santa carrying out the equally impossible task of getting round everyone's house in 24 hours and delivering the right stuff? Well you get told that Santa can do this because he's magic...

Where's the difference?

Santa does not claim to be God.