Frankly, I find the whole idea of needing to cling to faith over a valid interpretation of the facts instulting to my intelligence. After all, if I were to believe in god, I would have to believe that he gave me the ability determine what is real and what isn't through an understanding of what is possible in reality, yet he wants me to ignore all of this in favor of unrealistic stories with no evidence that were written by people with a very limited understanding of the cosmos.

Does this make sense? Apparently only to those that are willing to toss reason out the window in the first place.

(March 18, 2012 at 10:23 pm)Drich Wrote: Again immaterial. As we are discussing the story recorded in Genesis.

Genesis in a nutshell......

Satan fucks up gods divine plan with a few well chosen words.

God then spends next six thousand years trying to fix things up

AND STILL HASN'T SUCCEEDED!!!

Well played Satan.

Very well played.

(March 19, 2012 at 9:04 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 10:23 pm)Drich Wrote: Again immaterial. As we are discussing the story recorded in Genesis.

Genesis in a nutshell......

Satan fucks up gods divine plan with a few well chosen words.

God then spends next six thousand years trying to fix things up

AND STILL HASN'T SUCCEEDED!!!

Well played Satan.

Very well played.

Yeah, I must admit, the bible does a great job making God appear to be a bumbling fool.

Like the book of Job, where just like in Genesis, Satan tricks God with a handful of words into letting Job get fucked ALL up.

Apparently all you have to do is play with his ego and god would be willing to be fooled to do anything.

(March 18, 2012 at 10:06 pm)mediamogul Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 10:02 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 9:37 pm)mediamogul Wrote: What if I told you that god just told me it wasn't true?

i would ask you why you are not doing more with a revelation from God than using it as a trump card in a theological discussion? then i would seek to verify your claim through the processes we have been given to verify your status as a prophet.

(You would be the first to make such claims)

So you would want some evidence. OK now we are making progress.

Now imagine it wasn't me saying that god had spoken to me. Imagine it was a book where someone had written that god had spoken to them stating that the flood was not a true story and I was saying that this book demonstrated that Noah did not exist. What would you say then?

Perhaps you should first identify the method in which the "evidence" is being weighed. (I think it would save us some time in your step by step)

---

(March 19, 2012 at 7:53 am)Faith No More Wrote: Frankly, I find the whole idea of needing to cling to faith over a valid interpretation of the facts insulting to my intelligence. After all, if I were to believe in god, I would have to believe that he gave me the ability determine what is real and what isn't through an understanding of what is possible in reality, yet he wants me to ignore all of this in favor of unrealistic stories with no evidence that were written by people with a very limited understanding of the cosmos.

Does this make sense? Apparently only to those that are willing to toss reason out the window in the first place.

Do you truly think our understanding of the Infinite Cosmos is anywhere close to complete? Then couldn't it be said you are working with a very limited understanding of the cosmos right now? So now the question now becomes What is the difference between the faith you have in your "Very Limited understanding of the Cosmos", and mine?

Besides the obvious blind eye pointed towards what you believe.

---

(March 19, 2012 at 9:04 am)Zen Badger Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 10:23 pm)Drich Wrote: Again immaterial. As we are discussing the story recorded in Genesis.

Genesis in a nutshell......

Satan fucks up gods divine plan with a few well chosen words.

God then spends next six thousand years trying to fix things up

AND STILL HASN'T SUCCEEDED!!!

Well played Satan.

Very well played.

Please explain. What did satan mess up, and what has God done that did not work?

Quote:Does this make sense? .

Indeedly doodly. THAT is why I consider organised religion and clergy to be arguably the greatest confidence trick ever perpetrated on the human race. It is also why I have only contempt for self professed experts who turn up here to teach their personal dogmas

(March 19, 2012 at 7:44 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 10:06 pm)mediamogul Wrote:

(March 18, 2012 at 10:02 pm)Drich Wrote: [quote='mediamogul' pid='256972' dateline='1332121075']
What if I told you that god just told me it wasn't true?

i would ask you why you are not doing more with a revelation from God than using it as a trump card in a theological discussion? then i would seek to verify your claim through the processes we have been given to verify your status as a prophet.

(You would be the first to make such claims)

So you would want some evidence. OK now we are making progress.

Now imagine it wasn't me saying that god had spoken to me. Imagine it was a book where someone had written that god had spoken to them stating that the flood was not a true story and I was saying that this book demonstrated that Noah did not exist. What would you say then?

Perhaps you should first identify the method in which the "evidence" is being weighed. (I think it would save us some time in your step by step)

---

My point being that this is exactly what you are asking us to do! You have a book and in it you say was written that god spoke to these people or "inspired" their stories. You ask me for evidence when I make exactly the same claims and rightly you should. However, when we ask you for evidence you say that it is not a matter of evidence, fact, or logic but instead faith. Do you see the problem? You have no reason to believe what I said anymore than I have reason to believe what you said. There are lots of people in the world holding books that have stories written in them that said god spoke to them. Stories you know are untrue because they can't be. It's easy to see it when it is someone else's religion. So why is it you think that just because YOU happen to be the one holding the book now that says god spoke to someone that it has any more validity than the others?

(March 19, 2012 at 8:15 pm)mediamogul Wrote: My point being that this is exactly what you are asking us to do! You have a book and in it you say was written that god spoke to these people or "inspired" their stories. You ask me for evidence when I make exactly the same claims and rightly you should. However, when we ask you for evidence you say that it is not a matter of evidence, fact, or logic but instead faith. Do you see the problem? You have no reason to believe what I said anymore than I have reason to believe what you said. There are lots of people in the world holding books that have stories written in them that said god spoke to them. Stories you know are untrue because they can't be. It's easy to see it when it is someone else's religion. So why is it you think that just because YOU happen to be the one holding the book now that says god spoke to someone that it has any more validity than the others?

You assume too much that is why i said you should first identify the method in which I verify your claims.

If you had we would have went back to the old book, and then you would want verification that the book is what it says it is correct?

Then i would point to the promises in that book made to the follower of the precepts that were written in the book. Then i would turn to where these promises were realized in my life. Thus (for me) confirming the validity of the passages in said book.

You guys have been arguing the same old arguments so long you just assume your own arguments to be completely true all of the time no matter the circumstance.. Kinda sounds like the same kind of blind faith "we" are labeled with most of the time.

What you seem to misunderstand is that the bible was Not compiled in such a way to meet the imperial standards of modern objectification and reason. It was in fact written to a different people in a different time. To these people personal proof reigned supreme, because they were taught not to allow others think or interpret for you when you can experience for yourself.

The bible is written/geared toward and full filled through one on one contact between the believer and God.

God did not write his text to just the people who live in the 18th century and later. He wrote to the one who could humble himself far enough to earnestly Ask Seek and Knock for Him.

(March 19, 2012 at 8:41 pm)Drich Wrote:

(March 19, 2012 at 8:15 pm)mediamogul Wrote: My point being that this is exactly what you are asking us to do! You have a book and in it you say was written that god spoke to these people or "inspired" their stories. You ask me for evidence when I make exactly the same claims and rightly you should. However, when we ask you for evidence you say that it is not a matter of evidence, fact, or logic but instead faith. Do you see the problem? You have no reason to believe what I said anymore than I have reason to believe what you said. There are lots of people in the world holding books that have stories written in them that said god spoke to them. Stories you know are untrue because they can't be. It's easy to see it when it is someone else's religion. So why is it you think that just because YOU happen to be the one holding the book now that says god spoke to someone that it has any more validity than the others?

You assume too much that is why i said you should first identify the method in which I verify your claims.

If you had we would have went back to the old book, and then you would want verification that the book is what it says it is correct?

Then i would point to the promises in that book made to the follower of the precepts that were written in the book. Then i would turn to where these promises were realized in my life. Thus (for me) confirming the validity of the passages in said book.

You guys have been arguing the same old arguments so long you just assume your own arguments to be completely true all of the time no matter the circumstance.. Kinda sounds like the same kind of blind faith "we" are labeled with most of the time.

What you seem to misunderstand is that the bible was Not compiled in such a way to meet the imperial standards of modern objectification and reason. It was in fact written to a different people in a different time. To these people personal proof reigned supreme, because they were taught not to allow others think or interpret for you when you can experience for yourself.

The bible is written/geared toward and full filled through one on one contact between the believer and God.

God did not write his text to just the people who live in the 18th century and later. He wrote to the one who could humble himself far enough to earnestly Ask Seek and Knock for Him.

Right. So let me get this straight. When YOU are holding the book it is a personal, faith type thing that makes the book true. But when I am holding the book you need evidence and proof. You still haven't answered my question: Why is it that you require proof from me or other religions and not from your own. I'm just asking for a simple straight direct answer.

(March 19, 2012 at 7:44 pm)Drich Wrote: Please explain. What did satan mess up, and what has God done that did not work?

Even by xtian standards you are the low rung on the ladder.

Quote:"God does not inflict correction on the world as if he were some unskilled laborer who is incapable of building something properly the first time around; God has no need to purify what he has built by means of a flood or a conflagration (as they teach)."

--Celsus c 180 AD

(March 19, 2012 at 8:52 pm)mediamogul Wrote: Right. So let me get this straight. When YOU are holding the book it is a personal, faith type thing that makes the book true.

Again you have been argueing the same tired stuff so long you do not see anything else. Take to time to read what is written rather than assume i am give you what you think a christian response should be.

I am saying there are very specific promises laid out in scripture for the believer. The next thing i said was I full fill the requirement for the believer and everything promised was given to me.

In short I tested the word of God against what I experienced, and the word was proven to be true. i got what was promised. Because I got and continue to receive what the scripture promises The book rings true in EVERY Aspect of My life.

There is no blind faith here. Faith was bought at the price of years of heavey scrutiny and challenges. That is apart of the reason I am here. to return some of what I was given.

Quote:But when I am holding the book you need evidence and proof. You still haven't answered my question: Why is it that you require proof from me or other religions and not from your own. I'm just asking for a simple straight direct answer.

Which has been answered twice now.