Well, explain to me how one can force themselves into believing whatever they like just cos they feel like it?

Like the example I've already given on the 'Ex Theists' Thread:

(August 14, 2009 at 5:23 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: If you see a truck coming towards you, just you try not believing you'll get hit if you don't move. If you don't see such a truck, just try genuinely convincing yourself that there is one without self-denial.

You are compelled by your experience.

If you can give me evidence how you can just force yourself to believe whatever in this situation, rather than being compelled....go ahead.

As far as I'm concerned your beliefs develop because you are compelled to believe certain things, and then those beliefs drive you.

EvF

Nobody is talking about forcing anything though. Are you regressing to your idea that God in non transcendant?

I am saying that how can you say it's a choice? What do you mean by choice? We are compelled, we can't force ourselves to believe something, we either believe something or we don't, we are complled. If we can't force ourselves out of what we are just compelled by, then I fail to understand what you mean by "choice".

And no, my idea isn't that God is non-transcendent. I don't believe God exists at all, as you know.

EvF

I'm not talking about your belief. I'm talking about your reason for thinking what I believe. You're understanding of how my belief works.

The only way I can understand you not understanding that belief is a choice is if you think I think God is not transcendental. Please explain if you have other reasoning.

Well I'm not talking about your belief. I'm saying that I don't see how belief can be a "choice" because you are either convinced or unconvinced by something due to what you're compelled by. I don't see where a "choice" comes into it.

How would God being transcendent make a difference here? You also believe "choices" are mechanical like me, didn't you say? So how would that make a difference? What I want to know is how we can "choose" to believe something when we're just compelled by it. You can try to decide to believe 'X', but whether you do or you don't, that's not what will convince you is it?

If I tried a million times to believe something but I was completely unconvinced by it, that's not going to work. I need to be genuinely convinced for the belief to shift.

EvF

I have no idea what you want Evie. I've said.. I followed reasoning every time. I reasoned so I chose. I reasoned so I un-chose. At one time reasoning led me to believe. At another time reasoning led me to disbelieve. I was compelled.

The transcendental shifts us away from subjects such as trucks that are tangible. You can't 'not' believe that a truck exists sensibly. You can believe that a transcendental god exists or not. It's a choice possible through reason.

So how is God any different to the truck? Why is that belief any different?

As with all beliefs...I am saying that you get convinced to believe something or you don't. You don't think your thoughts and then think "Oh, I think I'll believe it after all" - you can't choose a belief at your will (free or un-free) - you can try to and be completely incapable of doing so. The reasons compel you to believe, you don't choose whether they do or not, you don't do your own reasoning like "oh, that's a good reason to believe" - it's not a matter of "choice".

EvF

You can test the truck is real. Try to walk through it and you may end up with a sore head. God is not, by his nature, that sort of reality.

I've said before.. IMO belief doesn't really apply to things we're sure exist. Belief does not = 'to know'. I know the truck exists. I can't know, in the same way, that God exists.

Are you saying my belief is in a non transcendental God?? If not, your question makes no sense.

(August 15, 2009 at 2:58 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I really did believe God didn't exist yeah. I made a conscious choice in that moment and ceased to believe in God. One minute, God. the next minute, no God. You don't believe this is possible?

No ... I do not believe it is rational to choose to not believe in a god (or vice versa)!

(August 15, 2009 at 2:58 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Belief isn't some uninformed notion. Otherwise there really is no difference in believing in those other contenders ()

Belief is a result of other factors but is not a consequence of choice IMO.

Kyu

Can you explain those two statements then please Kyu?