(April 1, 2012 at 2:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: More of this blood atonement and vicarious redemption bullshit? How's about you man up and take responsibility for your own failings for a change? There is no morality to be had if you start from this point. Just evasion. Perhaps you can be forgiven, perhaps someone else can suffer in your stead, but nothing has been taken away, you're still filthy. Hell, probably filthier for even hoping that sacrificing another would somehow wash you clean.

I accepted the forgiveness. We do not deserve it and i would say some don't even want it(they believe they have done nothing wrong or have never sinned). I don't hope that he sacrificed for me, it already happened and i accept it. I am still filthy, i think we all still are, his forgiveness doesn't change that about us, it changes that about him.

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(April 1, 2012 at 2:54 pm)houseofcantor Wrote:

(April 1, 2012 at 2:12 pm)C Rod Wrote: What else do you have to say to that? I'm intrigued and profoundly curious to know this group or type I am.

Revisionist.

What is being revision?

(April 2, 2012 at 7:30 pm)C Rod Wrote: What is being revision?

In the OT, ya mess with YHWH, you die. Sometimes horribly, but the threshold of eternity was the end of the matter. Jesus, however, was all about the after. Clearly it was a ploy to expand the appeal of Judaism from an elitist cult requiring much time and study to an evangelical form where one prayer and you're in the mix.

Saying that the OT was written in anticipation of Jesus is seriously wearing the blinders. Only the book of Isaiah seems to indicate a coming savior, and that's iffy.

"Well, I mean, I wouldn't scapegoat anyone, but since it's already done, it's all good, I accept it"

"Well, I mean I wouldn't mug anyone, but since he's already laying dead on the pavement, I guess it;s okay to take his wallet"

Give me a break. How's about this, tell your magic man to reverse time and events, pulls jesus off the cross, and let you deal with your own shit, you know, like a responsible human being who doesn't make excuses? You may think you've found a way to clear this whole business with your conscience, but I can't. Perhaps you should wonder why my atheist's conscience seems so much more strict than your own theist 's conscience? It just might have something to do with accepting responsibility for my actions and refusing to allow others to be the fall man for whatever I get myself involved in (even if they want to, even if they offer to, even if they could). I understand and appreciate that what you attempted to explain with your response was how this whole affair was made "okay", but to me, all you did was paint a picture of christains as vultures, picking at the corpse of christ.

(March 22, 2012 at 1:06 pm)Darwinian Wrote: Simple question that's just occurred to me.. Just for theists!!

Would you give up a guaranteed place in heaven to save the souls of a 1000 atheists?

If you say no then you would not be judged or punished and be allowed into heaven anyway.

Save them from what?

(April 3, 2012 at 7:52 am)houseofcantor Wrote:

(April 2, 2012 at 7:30 pm)C Rod Wrote: What is being revision?

In the OT, ya mess with YHWH, you die. Sometimes horribly, but the threshold of eternity was the end of the matter. Jesus, however, was all about the after. Clearly it was a ploy to expand the appeal of Judaism from an elitist cult requiring much time and study to an evangelical form where one prayer and you're in the mix.

Saying that the OT was written in anticipation of Jesus is seriously wearing the blinders. Only the book of Isaiah seems to indicate a coming savior, and that's iffy.

There is many indications in the OT to tell of a coming savior or "King". If you want them, I'll will find all of them for you. Isaiah 53 is iffy, lol. If they went back and edited that verse after Jesus, then well, yea its super iffy but it is not about Israel.
It doesn't seem to be a grand ploy, one prayer and your in, that simple everybody should just do it and just forget about it. Seems merciful and generous. God desires mercy. Hosea 6:6
If afterlife wasn't of importance, then why in Daniel is he told that he will rest and then be given is allotted inheritance? Afterlife?

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(April 3, 2012 at 9:20 am)Rhythm Wrote: "Well, I mean, I wouldn't scapegoat anyone, but since it's already done, it's all good, I accept it"

"Well, I mean I wouldn't mug anyone, but since he's already laying dead on the pavement, I guess it;s okay to take his wallet"

Give me a break. How's about this, tell your magic man to reverse time and events, pulls jesus off the cross, and let you deal with your own shit, you know, like a responsible human being who doesn't make excuses? You may think you've found a way to clear this whole business with your conscience, but I can't. Perhaps you should wonder why my atheist's conscience seems so much more strict than your own theist 's conscience? It just might have something to do with accepting responsibility for my actions and refusing to allow others to be the fall man for whatever I get myself involved in (even if they want to, even if they offer to, even if they could). I understand and appreciate that what you attempted to explain with your response was how this whole affair was made "okay", but to me, all you did was paint a picture of christains as vultures, picking at the corpse of christ.

In the comparison to the the guy that got mugged, did he want me to have what was in his pockets? Why would you not accept a gift, are you too good, too noble, are you afraid to be deceived or insecure?
If I have to deal with my shit, i will accept what ever happens, how the fuck could i not, well i guess i could reason my good deeds or rational view.
What does it take to soothe your conscious and why must your conscious be soothed to began with?

"Gift". LOL. The torture and/or death of another human being isn't even close to a gift as far as I'm concerned. It just gets worse since the gift giver supposedly telegraphed their intentions for the gift (and no, it isn't any better if you insist that it was the torture and/or death of a living god). Yes, it's a point of pride for me to actively avoid scapegoating (and to actively criticize those who champion the same), is this a problem? What is there to be insecure about? How could I be deceived? Scapegoating is bullshit. So was your response.

(March 22, 2012 at 1:06 pm)Darwinian Wrote: Simple question that's just occurred to me.. Just for theists!!

Would you give up a guaranteed place in heaven to save the souls of a 1000 atheists?

If you say no then you would not be judged or punished and be allowed into heaven anyway.

Does heaven exist?

(April 4, 2012 at 2:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: "Gift". LOL. The torture and/or death of another human being isn't even close to a gift as far as I'm concerned. It just gets worse since the gift giver supposedly telegraphed their intentions for the gift (and no, it isn't any better if you insist that it was the torture and/or death of a living god). Yes, it's a point of pride for me to actively avoid scapegoating (and to actively criticize those who champion the same), is this a problem? What is there to be insecure about? How could I be deceived? Scapegoating is bullshit. So was your response.

Scapegoating might just be necessary and the most merciful notion possible, but i think the word that should be used is sacrifice, willing sacrifice.
If he wants you to have what he is giving, why not take it? Its because your too insecure to accept something like that or that its some sort of trap or falsehood. Or its pride, too good to accept something out of your control and would rather be saved by your own power than by someone else. You do this to establish reason and rationality as supremely necessary or the final truth that should control all life. Thus i am concerned with that i am still to be controlled, weakened by a system that still constrains, even if there might be a better choice out there.
Have you seen the end of Mass Effect 3?

I'd probably reject a heaven that condemns atheists, but I might be weak actually facing such a doom. Also I'm not sure if I could send atheists willing to accept the doom of others to heaven, so the ones I'd pick would reject heaven and we'd have 1001 people going to hell.

No CRod..I "do this" because to do otherwise would be unthinkable, I could not live with myself. I could not send another to the gallows for something that I had done. Could you?

Scapegoating is scapegoating, you want to give it a pretty name (I'm guessing because scapegotaing sounds fucking terrible to you), but it is what it is. I refuse this "gift". The giver is a peice of shit for offering it, and he can shove it up his ass. Or, maybe, no such "gift" was offered? You keep attempting to make this an issue of some sort of failing on my part. Passing the buck,..so, scapegoating on the issue of scapegoating...bravo.

We won't see eye to eye on this CRod, there's no point in attempting to find common ground. It's non-negotiable to me. You don't accept "gifts" that are beneath you, period. I'm capable of handling the messes I create or I am not, they are no one else's responsibility. No excuses you make will change this, no redefinition is possible. Find more fertile ground.