Mehm condemns homosexual activity, it doesn't actually matter to him what the bible has to say on the matter Tea. If it said that god loved all the fabulous gays and especially their hair products, and occasionally took it up the ass, it would be clear to him that the text was incorrect.

(April 25, 2012 at 4:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, it doesn't. Many jews view it as a sin, many christians view it as a sin. Their god is silent on the matter (as he is in all matters, in any case). Things are rather clear, you are mistaken.

Does it? If it does, what does it say in the verse that I've posted?

Quote:If I remember correctly that might have connection to cultic worship acts in OT days, not just two guy's loving each other in San Fran like us moderns think of homosexuality.

Cultic worship?
I wonder how one would interpretate that verse as a "cultic thing", as I don't remember hearing of such a thing in the ancient cults prevailant in the fertile crescent. Sacred prostitution was one thing, bacchanalia another, but I believe that this refers to the act itself. Sodomy.
It says the same in the Turkish and German versions of the Bible that I've read.

Here is the German version:

Quote: Du sollst nicht beim Knaben liegen wie beim Weibe; denn es ist ein Greuel.

Thou shalt not lie with the boys as thou would lie with a woman, because it's an abomination.

I think that this translation is rather accurate in how homosexuality was practiced in the ancient days. Not amongst two grown men, but amongst a man and an adolescent boy. For the ancient Israelis, homosexuality did not came in the form between two grown men, probably.
But today, homosexuality has moved from being between adolescents and grownups. It still holds true.


Now to the Turkish translation.

Quote:Kadınla yatar gibi bir erkekle yatma. Bu iğrençtir.

Do not lie with a man as thou would lie with women. It is disgusting.

This is similar to the other versions.

---

Quote:Mehm condemns homosexual activity, it doesn't actually matter to him what the bible has to say on the matter Tea. If it said that god loved all the fabulous gays and especially their hair products, and occasionally took it up the ass, it would be clear to him that the text was incorrect.

True, I do not condone such acts. However, in todays world with civil liberties, I guess people can act as they want to. But I have certain limits when it comes to society. I do not want those people to be visible to normal society, and take part in society with their homosexual identities. They must respect the boundaries that we have set for them. It is defined on mutual respect. We're the majority, they're the minority. They ought not to make demands of us.

(April 25, 2012 at 5:09 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(April 25, 2012 at 4:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: No, it doesn't. Many jews view it as a sin, many christians view it as a sin. Their god is silent on the matter (as he is in all matters, in any case). Things are rather clear, you are mistaken.

Does it? If it does, what does it say in the verse that I've posted?

Quote:If I remember correctly that might have connection to cultic worship acts in OT days, not just two guy's loving each other in San Fran like us moderns think of homosexuality.

Cultic worship?
I wonder how one would interpretate that verse as a "cultic thing", as I don't remember hearing of such a thing in the ancient cults prevailant in the fertile crescent. Sacred prostitution was one thing, bacchanalia another, but I believe that this refers to the act itself. Sodomy.
It says the same in the Turkish and German versions of the Bible that I've read.

Here is the German version:

Quote: Du sollst nicht beim Knaben liegen wie beim Weibe; denn es ist ein Greuel.

Thou shalt not lie with the boys as thou would lie with a woman, because it's an abomination.

I think that this translation is rather accurate in how homosexuality was practiced in the ancient days. Not amongst two grown men, but amongst a man and an adolescent boy. For the ancient Israelis, homosexuality did not came in the form between two grown men, probably.
But today, homosexuality has moved from being between adolescents and grownups. It still holds true.


Now to the Turkish translation.

Quote:Kadınla yatar gibi bir erkekle yatma. Bu iğrençtir.

Do not lie with a man as thou would lie with women. It is disgusting.

This is similar to the other versions.

I really don't understand what relevance German and Turkish translations pose. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Greek and parts in I think Aramaic. Anything else is a translation.

And yeah, from what I've read, cultic prostitution was happening back then. It died out by the time you get to NT days though.

And if you're right that it was pedestry (I've heard this from some of the authors I'm trying to get you read in fact) it does not follow that the Bible condemns homosexuality between two adults.

Quote:Does it? If it does, what does it say in the verse that I've posted?

But I don't know what relevance it poses. Church doctrine is not written by me or you. If a church decides to make homosexuality sinful, they can simply quote the verse in the old testament, and it would still prove true.

Quote:I really don't understand what relevance German and Turkish translations pose. The Bible was written in Hebrew, Greek and parts in I think Aramaic. Anything else is a translation.

Saying that they are the same in translations in other languages. Besides, as I said, they have the same view on homosexuality in other abrahamic religions.

Quote:And yeah, from what I've read, cultic prostitution was happening back then. It died out by the time you get to NT days though.

It did.

Quote:And if you're right that it was pedestry (I've heard this from some of the authors I'm trying to get you read in fact) it does not follow that the Bible condemns homosexuality between two adults.

Well, the bible could not condemn homosexual acts between two adults, because I could state that such acts were unknown to the people of the time. This also ringed true for homosexuality in feudal japan, and ancient greece.
Christians could state that this could apply to homosexual relationships of today, as it doesn't really matter if one of the participants is of young age-it's still a male, and sex is still homosexual.

mehmet Wrote:We're the majority, they're the minority. They ought not to make demands of us.

That quote is disturbing.

(April 25, 2012 at 5:26 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: ...
Christians could state that this could apply to homosexual relationships of today, as it doesn't really matter if one of the participants is of young age-it's still a male, and sex is still homosexual.

Sure, they could say anything they want. They could say that the verse condemns bunk beds if they felt like it. It doesn't mean that it's the correct interpretation of the implications of the verse. You seem to be assuming that the Bible would be condemning pedestry in this verse because it involves two people of the same gender. I could think of a variety of more plausible answers, such as you know, one of the people happens to be a child! The problem when you say that the Bible would have condemned consensual relationships between two adults of the same gender if it was a common thing going on back then, is that you're not saying that based on anything the Bible actually says, but your own modern values and biases which may not in fact be biblical.

So, still droning on about how homosexuality and pedophilia are tied at the hip, still droning on about god hating teh gayz. Still wrong, on both counts.

Mehm doesn't have any "modern values and biases", btw, and I'll defend him against such slanderous accusations any day of the week....

(April 25, 2012 at 8:01 pm)Rhythm Wrote: ...
Mehm doesn't have any "modern values and biases", btw, and I'll defend him against such slanderous accusations any day of the week....

My apologies then.

(April 25, 2012 at 4:43 am)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Why should he? This would go against his faith.

Why should who do what?

(April 25, 2012 at 5:35 pm)Paul the Human Wrote:

mehmet Wrote:We're the majority, they're the minority. They ought not to make demands of us.

That quote is disturbing.

Disturbing for the minority?
I sure hope so. Besides, it's not something that is exclusive to the gays either.
It is a general statement to anyone who views himself as a part of a minority.

Quote:Sure, they could say anything they want. They could say that the verse condemns bunk beds if they felt like it. It doesn't mean that it's the correct interpretation of the implications of the verse. You seem to be assuming that the Bible would be condemning pedestry in this verse because it involves two people of the same gender. I could think of a variety of more plausible answers, such as you know, one of the people happens to be a child! The problem when you say that the Bible would have condemned consensual relationships between two adults of the same gender if it was a common thing going on back then, is that you're not saying that based on anything the Bible actually says, but your own modern values and biases which may not in fact be biblical.

The bible is condemning pederasty because it was the only application of homosexuality that they could probably think of at those times.
Besides, the bible doesn't condemn pedophilia by today's standards, as people did marry young at those days, whether they committed sexual acts with a small girl or boy.
But let's look at this verse:
Leviticus 20:13. It prescribes death for both parties. Whereas in the laws that are about fornication, a woman does not have to suffer death if she was raped in the countryside, where she would not have been heard if she screamed for help. It makes no such distinction for homosexual acts between two males, even if one of the parties is a youngster.
So what really is there to discuss about how this verse should be interpretated?
My ideas are not based on any biblical interpretations. They are on the lines of the society and the ideals for which I hold for modern Turkish society. That is all.

Quote:So, still droning on about how homosexuality and pedophilia are tied at the hip, still droning on about god hating teh gayz. Still wrong, on both counts.

I'm saying is that they don't have to, as pedophilia was a rather recent addition to our moral compass. The ancient people had no such things. Same still goes for many recently contacted natives, where things such as pedophilia by our standards are socially accepted facts.
So, pedarasty is still at the end, a homosexual act, and thousands of years of judeo-christian theology simply has no distinction regarding the circumstances of age.