(May 15, 2012 at 3:09 pm)Chuck Wrote: Ahh, so sending poeple straight to heaven is contrary to love. Letting them go to hell is not. Yes, it is all very clear now.

You don't "send them to Heaven"; God brings them to Heaven.

All you would be doing is murdering people and causing untold amounts of suffering, grief and pain to the child's loved ones, causing scandal and driving goodness in general from the world.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

— Susan B. Anthony

The suggestion here that God's actions should not be judged because God's reasons are unknowable runs into issues in much the same way that agnosticism does, making a knowledge claim that knowledge of God is not possible. If I look at the engine of my car, knowing what it ultimately does, I can certainly claim, justifiably, that I don't know how it works. However, if you bring me to an automobile with a closed hood, I can't rightly say whether I do or do not understand its motive power, as I lack the knowledge to make that determination. (And Job raises as many questions as it answers, literally — see excerpts below. The interpretation of God's soliloquy is problematic on many levels, from it being a largely Socratic dialog, from the text itself, from the question of literalism versus hermeneutics, to the fact that the story of Job was likely borrowed from other cultures).

And despite one attempt, the question of what is a baby has gone unanswered. Perhaps the question is better phrased as when does a baby stop being a baby such that it no longer receives a pass on God's judgement? 12 months? 18 months? 3-1/2 years? 60 years? And note that if you answer when the baby or child is old enough to understand X or Y, you've just pushed the question back one level — to when does a human possess sufficient understanding of X/Y to receive judgement. And this is one side of the problem of death overall. A person's ability to change from the guilty to the saved can occur at basically any point in life. And as Chad Wooters suggests, God is in full control, so God may not only be depriving you of life, but also eternal happiness as well. Does it make sense to put any limit on one's moral experiment? If God is omniscient, it would make sense to me to extend one's "projected acts" to infinity, as we do in mathematics when trying to characterize a function whose behavior may wander all over the graph initially, yet ultimately converge on a specific value or behavior. (The question of monotonic periodicity arises here, people who alternate between being saved and not being saved in regular cycles — how do you judge that individual if you are God?) This also omits the fact that death affects the living as much as the dead. How do you judge me less deserving of salvation because, on account of naturally caused suffering, I turned away from God? Wasn't He in control of the cause of my turning away?

Job, New International Version, declarative excerpts only. (I've omitted passages that are in the interrogative as interpreting their meaning requires interpretation which by its nature is highly subjective.)

Job 38

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

Job 39

3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.

13 The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”


Now that we have the text before us, please show where God is claiming that his moral judgements are beyond our ken. (And keep in mind that doing so contradicts Genesis 3:21-23 [And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." - NIV]) Moreover, If I recall correctly, properly translated, the story of the Fall in Genesis says that if we had eaten of the tree of life also, we would have been as Gods.

(May 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)apophenia Wrote: The suggestion here that God's actions should not be judged because God's reasons are unknowable runs into issues in much the same way that agnosticism does, making a knowledge claim that knowledge of God is not possible.

Apples and oranges. Inquires about the purposes of God relate to the nature of His Providence. There are two types of providence: general and specific. Knowledge of general providence follows from theological inquiry into the nature of God. Explanations of specific divine actions would not fall within the scope of that kind of inquiry.

(May 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)apophenia Wrote: This also omits the fact that death affects the living as much as the dead. How do you judge me less deserving of salvation because, on account of naturally caused suffering, I turned away from God? Wasn't He in control of the cause of my turning away?

No. Because suffering could just as easily have led you to lean on Him even more in your time of distress.

(May 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)apophenia Wrote: Now that we have the text before us, please show where God is claiming that his moral judgements are beyond our ken.

In the text God repeatedly demonstrates that his knowledge exceeds that of Job. Job is forced to admit that he cannot answer any of God’s questions. Thus God’s judgments are based on more information than would be available to Job.

(May 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)apophenia Wrote: And … contradicts Genesis 3:21-23…The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil

Again, apples and oranges. Knowledge of good and evil intent and is not the same as having complete understanding of the circumstances surrounding a moral dilemma or certainty about the outcomes of our decisions.

(May 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)apophenia Wrote: And despite one attempt, the question of what is a baby has gone unanswered.

New Church doctrines on the eternal fate of those that die at very young ages is very clear and also differs significantly from those of most other Christian denominations. Freedom does not depend on the presence of evil. Children adopted by the Lord still have freedom because in heaven you can still choose between greater and a lesser goods. The Lord draws all men unto Him. The damned are those that resist that invitation. Everyone does not have the same temptations. The natural bodily appetites of the young which would in later life lead them into sin are offset by their innocent dependence. As such they transfer the desires for security and comfort into a willingness to be led by the Lord. As soon as they are taken into heaven, they are raised by angels who receive them as their own. Under the Lord's adoption these children are educated and instructed as they grow in intelligence and stature. All infants who die as such are saved and become angels. It is however possible for a man who lives out his span on earth to come into as perfect a state as that of those educated in heaven: provided only that he removes the loves of self and the world and receives spiritual loves in their stead. "For there is the same in him as in the infant." (Heaven and Hell 345e)

(May 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)apophenia Wrote:


"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

— Susan B. Anthony

The suggestion here that God's actions should not be judged because God's reasons are unknowable runs into issues in much the same way that agnosticism does, making a knowledge claim that knowledge of God is not possible. If I look at the engine of my car, knowing what it ultimately does, I can certainly claim, justifiably, that I don't know how it works. However, if you bring me to an automobile with a closed hood, I can't rightly say whether I do or do not understand its motive power, as I lack the knowledge to make that determination. (And Job raises as many questions as it answers, literally — see excerpts below. The interpretation of God's soliloquy is problematic on many levels, from it being a largely Socratic dialog, from the text itself, from the question of literalism versus hermeneutics, to the fact that the story of Job was likely borrowed from other cultures).

And despite one attempt, the question of what is a baby has gone unanswered. Perhaps the question is better phrased as when does a baby stop being a baby such that it no longer receives a pass on God's judgement? 12 months? 18 months? 3-1/2 years? 60 years? And note that if you answer when the baby or child is old enough to understand X or Y, you've just pushed the question back one level — to when does a human possess sufficient understanding of X/Y to receive judgement. And this is one side of the problem of death overall. A person's ability to change from the guilty to the saved can occur at basically any point in life. And as Chad Wooters suggests, God is in full control, so God may not only be depriving you of life, but also eternal happiness as well. Does it make sense to put any limit on one's moral experiment? If God is omniscient, it would make sense to me to extend one's "projected acts" to infinity, as we do in mathematics when trying to characterize a function whose behavior may wander all over the graph initially, yet ultimately converge on a specific value or behavior. (The question of monotonic periodicity arises here, people who alternate between being saved and not being saved in regular cycles — how do you judge that individual if you are God?) This also omits the fact that death affects the living as much as the dead. How do you judge me less deserving of salvation because, on account of naturally caused suffering, I turned away from God? Wasn't He in control of the cause of my turning away?

Job, New International Version, declarative excerpts only. (I've omitted passages that are in the interrogative as interpreting their meaning requires interpretation which by its nature is highly subjective.)

Job 38

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

Job 39

3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.

13 The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.

26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”


Now that we have the text before us, please show where God is claiming that his moral judgements are beyond our ken. (And keep in mind that doing so contradicts Genesis 3:21-23 [And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil." - NIV]) Moreover, If I recall correctly, properly translated, the story of the Fall in Genesis says that if we had eaten of the tree of life also, we would have been as Gods.

First you should find scripture relevant to your question.
How does God's chastisement of Job seem relevant.
Knowing good and evil does not enlighten one to God's judgement, God's judgement comes through His righteousness, man's is being judged for his sin against God. The sinful can not judge the Righteous one, that would be like the criminal passing judgement on the court.
You are also wrong in your translation of Genesis 3:22, the part you have "we would be as gods," is literally "would live forever."
Susan B. Anthony is correct in what she said, God seldom puts people in their comfort zone when it comes to serving Him.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Come on people, surely you can come up with better arguments for God's intentions? Go back through these threads, and please address all my other points. I am the lost soul that you want to save, so put a bit of effort into it.

(May 15, 2012 at 5:54 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Excuses, excuses, excuses. Come on people, surely you can come up with better arguments for God's intentions? Go back through these threads, and please address all my other points. I am the lost soul that you want to save, so put a bit of effort into it.

Your points have been adequately addressed. You simply do not accept the responses. I doubt very much that you earnestly wish to be saved. If you did you would not be demanding answers to your objections but asking for clarifications that would draw you closer to saving faith. BTW didn't you already say you were done with this thread?

(May 15, 2012 at 7:13 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 15, 2012 at 5:54 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Excuses, excuses, excuses. Come on people, surely you can come up with better arguments for God's intentions? Go back through these threads, and please address all my other points. I am the lost soul that you want to save, so put a bit of effort into it.

Your points have been adequately addressed. You simply do not accept the responses. I doubt very much that you earnestly wish to be saved. If you did you would not be demanding answers to your objections but asking for clarifications that would draw you closer to saving faith. BTW didn't you already say you were done with this thread?

Bullshit. You addressed maybe one of my points; and not even adequately, I may add. I say a lot of things, but according to you Christians, so does God. I am made in HIS perfect image, so should I choose to redress the points made in this thread, then I will. Apologetics is for pussy believers like yourself. I challenge God to show me the truth, whereas you lie down and take it like a bitch. Don't question my fortitude based on your own weak subservience. I'll stand at the gates of heaven and still ask God why he treated people so badly. The question is; will you do the same or just stroll through the gates, happy in the knowledge that you are saved?

Fuck you; fuck your God; and fuck everything you believe in, for making you believe I am less than you are.

(May 15, 2012 at 7:33 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Fuck you; fuck your God; and fuck everything you believe in, for making you believe I am less than you are.

I do not consider you any less human or deserving of love, God's or anyone else's, than myself or any other members. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Unfortunately your vulgar and aggressive response confirmed my doubts about your intentions. I wish you all the best.

(May 15, 2012 at 8:16 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 15, 2012 at 7:33 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Fuck you; fuck your God; and fuck everything you believe in, for making you believe I am less than you are.

I do not consider you any less human or deserving of love, God's or anyone else's, than myself or any other members. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Unfortunately your vulgar and aggressive response confirmed my doubts about your intentions. I wish you all the best.

(May 15, 2012 at 8:16 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 15, 2012 at 7:33 pm)gringoperry Wrote: Fuck you; fuck your God; and fuck everything you believe in, for making you believe I am less than you are.

I do not consider you any less human or deserving of love, God's or anyone else's, than myself or any other members. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Unfortunately your vulgar and aggressive response confirmed my doubts about your intentions. I wish you all the best.

I call shenanigans again. Here's my response again; without the expletives, now see if you can address them any better.

You addressed maybe one of my points; and not even adequately, I may add. I say a lot of things, but according to you Christians, so does God. I am made in HIS perfect image, so should I choose to redress the points made in this thread, then I will. Apologetics is for cowardly believers like yourself. I challenge God to show me the truth, whereas you lie down and take it like as though there is no other choice. Don't question my fortitude based on your own weak subservience. I'll stand at the gates of heaven and still ask God why he treated people so badly. The question is; will you do the same or just stroll through the gates, happy in the knowledge that you are saved?

There, there are no expletives, so are you any more equipped to answer my questions?

(May 15, 2012 at 8:36 pm)gringoperry Wrote:

(May 15, 2012 at 8:16 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I do not consider you any less human or deserving of love, God's or anyone else's, than myself or any other members. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Unfortunately your vulgar and aggressive response confirmed my doubts about your intentions. I wish you all the best.

(May 15, 2012 at 8:16 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: I do not consider you any less human or deserving of love, God's or anyone else's, than myself or any other members. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Unfortunately your vulgar and aggressive response confirmed my doubts about your intentions. I wish you all the best.

I call shenanigans again. Here's my response again; without the expletives, now see if you can address them any better.

You addressed maybe one of my points; and not even adequately, I may add. I say a lot of things, but according to you Christians, so does God. I am made in HIS perfect image, so should I choose to redress the points made in this thread, then I will. Apologetics is for cowardly believers like yourself. I challenge God to show me the truth, whereas you lie down and take it like as though there is no other choice. Don't question my fortitude based on your own weak subservience. I'll stand at the gates of heaven and still ask God why he treated people so badly. The question is; will you do the same or just stroll through the gates, happy in the knowledge that you are saved?

There, there are no expletives, so are you any more equipped to answer my questions?

As for me and my family we will walk through those precious gates praising our savior, as for you I assure you God will deal with you justly, remember this the glory in heaven is the absolute opposite of hell. Maybe this will help you are a triune being.