Quote:After years of debating tons of people and a variety of labels, I make this post for atheists especially to get a bigger picture of what we are dealing with.

Oh I say,how kind. The people here have been waiting SO long for you,what with being so fucking stupid and all.

Can you say P-A-T-R-O-N-I-S-N-G P-R-A-T ?

(June 11, 2012 at 7:46 pm)padraic Wrote:

Quote:After years of debating tons of people and a variety of labels, I make this post for atheists especially to get a bigger picture of what we are dealing with.

Oh I say,how kind. The people here have been waiting SO long for you,what with being so fucking stupid and all.

Can you say P-A-T-R-O-N-I-S-N-G P-R-A-T ?

It would be if that was aimed at you. I got one for you.

Ever her that song by Carly Simon "You're so vain".

The atheist movement is relatively new as far as splashing into the mainstream. The core people like the posters here are old to this, but there are tons of people who are looking viewing this who are not posters or who are thinking about joining who do not have the same amount of ammo say you or I do. I was merely adding to that ammo. For their benefit, not yours.

AND if you really think I view myself as "Hitchen's gift to the world" you really need to stop sniffing that super glue. I am merely a person who is merely posting. You either like my posts, or you don't. No one is forcing you to take my advice or like anything I post.

I can remember myself when I first got on line and I cannot begin to tell you how much information I gained.

Quote:It would be if that was aimed at you. I got one for you.

I'm aware it was aimed at everyone here. The tone was didactic and arrogant in my opinion. I'm sure others will tell me if my perception is oversensitive, in which case I will apologise.

(June 11, 2012 at 2:30 pm)apophenia Wrote:

(June 11, 2012 at 1:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote: No one here is advocating hate, especially not me. But I do have every right to hate a claim, ON ANY SUBJECT, not just religion, and still like the person, even if I don't like that particular claim.

No, of course not. That explains why you came into a thread on FallenToReason's views on deism, and made two personal attacks on me, simply because I am religious — comments that had absolutely nothing to do with what was being discussed.

You may say you hate the claims and not the person, but your actions show that you're an ignorant, lying dickwad.

NO NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE RELIGIOUS

But because you have no good reason to hold your position. I defy you to show me where I personally attacked you. I most certainly attacked your position, sure, but that is ONE position on one subject. I am certainly sure you hold positions on a wide variety of subjects.

If we were debating which car had the best fuel mileage and I said "The Hummer" and you responded "bullshit, it is gas hog" would that be you personally attacking me, or would you be attacking my claim that Hummers are fuel efficient?

If all it took for anyone in human history to prove a claim was to say "I like what I believe" Then every claim every human has ever made in human history is true by default.

Now do yourself a favor and get over yourself. "Bullshit" DOES NOT MEAN " I HATE YOU, nor does it mean I will automatically hate every claim you make. This one topic on one issue.

No one is going to have you arrested for making claims they don't agree with. Instead of feigning a false martyrdom complex, and instead of taking it as a personal attack on you, try explaining why you hold the right position and stop complaining about my word choice.

Otherwise you have two options, don't respond to my posts, or put me on ignore. But if you chose to make another post to me that will be YOUR CHOICE, especially know that you know where I stand, if I have not made it clear by now, you will only be bringing needless stress on yourself, not me.

But do not expect me to make your baggage my baggage. I don't cower when things get heated and I do not take it personally and I think you are.
Don't torture yourself if you cant handle it, but don't presume that I have any obligation to give anything you claim special "hands off" treatment.

Ball is in your court now. I personally like the heat, it sharpens my skills and lots of times I see different arguments I had not heard before. But if you are going to take this personally, my advice would be don't engage me.

(June 11, 2012 at 9:53 pm)padraic Wrote:

Quote:It would be if that was aimed at you. I got one for you.

I'm aware it was aimed at everyone here. The tone was didactic and arrogant in my opinion. I'm sure others will tell me if my perception is oversensitive, in which case I will apologise.

Text is harder to detect inflection and intent than audio. I did not type that to be condescending or show off. I typed it because I think it is important.

The atheist voice was virtually nothing 11 years ago. And I do know how little I knew at the time I first called myself an atheist as compared to today. This is brain food for anyone who might not have considered it before.

And even today, as much as I think I know, which is not much compared to many atheist I read in books and many atheists posts whom I read, I am constantly getting new perspectives.

You see the increasing news stories about atheists, the increasing bus adds and billboards all over the country, someone is bound to see those and get on line being tired of being alone. Anything any of us can do here to better arm them and each other, helps.

Even repetition helps. What may be old hat to you is bound to be new to someone else. Like Hitchen's metaphor of heaven being "A celestial North Korea". I am sure before I first saw that on Youtube, there were hundreds of thosands who heard that before, but not me, so if he had only said that once and never repeated it, it wouldn't have gotten to me.

Rest assured I do not consider myself perfect nor do I want people to think I am always right, no one is ever right on all subjects all the time. Being right about one topic doesn't make one right about everything they claim, otherwise Newton's Alchemy would have been valid. That applies to everyone, including me.

I just offered that up for people to consider, nothing more.

Brian37 Wrote:

---

You still miss my point. There is no absolute "right way". CONTEXT matters and is what determines if I will be polite, or say "fuck you".

If someone is a violent dick, or oppressing someone within their society, I have no qualms about cussing those assholes out.

But if you think simply because I may cuss an individual out, or warn someone of the dangers of religion means every religious person will hate me, is absurd. There are plenty of believers who think men who treat women like property deserve condemnation and plenty willing to cuss those dicks out like I do.

Your intent of "only say nice things" is utopian and does not nor ever fit a complex world.

There are are few ways to say "The moon is not made of cheese" When putting like that and someone still reacts violently, what do you do then?

And how are you doing any oppressed minority, like women in Afghanistan by coddling the sexism of the men who rule over them with an iron fist?

Muslim women here can and will read this and that message gets sent back to the east and their relatives. And even with cussing, I have also cussed out the assholes who objected to the Mosque in NY, not because I agree with the faith of Islam, but hate the fact that we have a Constitution that protects freedom of religion and there are still pricks living here willing to shit on that concept.

Your problem is that you need to learn to separate issues. And that is how we can undermine set thinking, by showing people that there is no one way to view things.

There are theists I have blasted. In fact one thread on another website that has gone on for 5 years. Now in that context I attacked his claims, not him the person. He didn't run away and was NOT a violent prick and never threatened me, so in that context I had no need or desire to call him a fucktard, although I still think anyone with a deity belief is full of shit, he certainly knew that I felt that way, not about him, but about his claims. He threw his jabs ad my positions and I threw mine at his and sometimes it was not pretty. But I never hated him, and I am sure he does not hate me.

I think you do minorities and even theists in the majority a disservice by thinking everyone who gets confrontational has a glass jaw and will kill over it.

---

Wow. Your response is so full of red herrings and refutations to points I never made that I feel I must summarize the point I am actually trying to make, so it will be impossible for you to misconsture what I have to say, unless of course you are willfully being obtuse.

Insulting people is detrimental to getting them to change their beliefs.

(June 12, 2012 at 8:13 am)Faith No More Wrote:

Brian37 Wrote:

---

You still miss my point. There is no absolute "right way". CONTEXT matters and is what determines if I will be polite, or say "fuck you".

If someone is a violent dick, or oppressing someone within their society, I have no qualms about cussing those assholes out.

But if you think simply because I may cuss an individual out, or warn someone of the dangers of religion means every religious person will hate me, is absurd. There are plenty of believers who think men who treat women like property deserve condemnation and plenty willing to cuss those dicks out like I do.

Your intent of "only say nice things" is utopian and does not nor ever fit a complex world.

There are are few ways to say "The moon is not made of cheese" When putting like that and someone still reacts violently, what do you do then?

And how are you doing any oppressed minority, like women in Afghanistan by coddling the sexism of the men who rule over them with an iron fist?

Muslim women here can and will read this and that message gets sent back to the east and their relatives. And even with cussing, I have also cussed out the assholes who objected to the Mosque in NY, not because I agree with the faith of Islam, but hate the fact that we have a Constitution that protects freedom of religion and there are still pricks living here willing to shit on that concept.

Your problem is that you need to learn to separate issues. And that is how we can undermine set thinking, by showing people that there is no one way to view things.

There are theists I have blasted. In fact one thread on another website that has gone on for 5 years. Now in that context I attacked his claims, not him the person. He didn't run away and was NOT a violent prick and never threatened me, so in that context I had no need or desire to call him a fucktard, although I still think anyone with a deity belief is full of shit, he certainly knew that I felt that way, not about him, but about his claims. He threw his jabs ad my positions and I threw mine at his and sometimes it was not pretty. But I never hated him, and I am sure he does not hate me.

I think you do minorities and even theists in the majority a disservice by thinking everyone who gets confrontational has a glass jaw and will kill over it.

---

Wow. Your response is so full of red herrings and refutations to points I never made that I feel I must summarize the point I am actually trying to make, so it will be impossible for you to misconsture what I have to say, unless of course you are willfully being obtuse.

Insulting people is detrimental to getting them to change their beliefs.

Says you.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions" THOMAS JEFFERSON.

I have given you multiple examples of why it can be, NOT ALWAYS, but can be a useful tool.

Again, when people talk in terms of ANY blanket solution, ON ANY SUBJECT, not just this, but anything, you set yourself up for stagnation.

If I told you to always "ridicule" in every context no matter what, that is a form of dogmatism and would be just as wrong as what you are suggesting here.

I failed basic training, you want to know why? Not because I couldn't do it, I actually loved the physical stuff, but because I was to young to understand what they were trying to do to me. From 5 am to 10 pm I was shouted at and felt like a piece of shit, but feeling like a piece of shit was my own fault and lack of understanding of the situation and the intent of it. Simply put I was not emotionally prepared. They were trying to get me to get over my fear and be unafraid.

WHICH IS WHY I tell any theist if they are not comfortable in the boxing ring DONT JUMP IN. I had no business back then getting involved in something I was not prepared for.


I like you are falsely accusing me of, took what the Drill Instructors did as personal, rather than a test.

You cripple people by handing the emotional crutch of a taboo especially the minorities with this good intent.

I don't know how more clear I can make it. It is a matter of context and comfort level, not absolutes, not for them, not for us.

If I say "Don't take it personally" then why shouldn't that be enough? And what right does that person have after I say that and after they still engage to continue to make demands when the choice is on them.

I want to debate theists and I don't mind the heat, and like I said before, you falsely assume that everyone who gets offended, has a glass jaw. If that is the case I would never debate someone who equated me to Hitler for being an atheist.

What most people do is falsely treat there claims as being them, when claims are not people, but what people claim. If people would learn to separate the two they would know they should not be taking it personally and do not have to be afraid of merely being offended.

Stick to your own comfort level and don't assume all theists cant handle me or cant like me because of my tactic.

What? Did you forget to take your meds? I took mine.

Your tactics are the reason I didn't drop religion earlier. It was much easier to drop christianity once I was able to have an actual discussion about my beliefs and not get ridiculed.

Your tactics are really only appropriate in the face of persistent ignorance. When it's obvious you're not going to change minds.

Oh AS, I think you may be stretching a bit. You are most likely the "reason" that you didn't drop religion, lets not fob off our own proclivities towards the foolish or fanciful on others disdain for the same...