"Sorcery" is a Latinate word which has to do with the casting of lots, as in fortune telling. For the love of all real sense, would you please stop trying to be a philologist.

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Drich, are you talking about "pharmakia?" FFS. That word is a NT spin cycle which does mean drugs-even medicinal ones (hello, Jehovah's Witnesses). The true word for witchcraft in Greek is μαγεία, from which, hey presto, we get "magic." Sorcery is a very different word, whose roots are not tied directly to witchcraft.

So, you are to avoid medicine, but also avoid magic mushrooms. But it is OK to nosh on your god and sip his blood and believe in transubstantiation? In other words, you guys don't need drugs to trip.

(July 1, 2012 at 2:34 pm)Epimethean Wrote: "Sorcery" is a Latinate word which has to do with the casting of lots, as in fortune telling. For the love of all real sense, would you please stop trying to be a philologist.

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Drich, are you talking about "pharmakia?" FFS. That word is a NT spin cycle which does mean drugs-even medicinal ones (hello, Jehovah's Witnesses). The true word for witchcraft in Greek is μαγεία, from which, hey presto, we get "magic." Sorcery is a very different word, whose roots are not tied directly to witchcraft.

So, you are to avoid medicine, but also avoid magic mushrooms. But it is OK to nosh on your god and sip his blood and believe in transubstantiation? In other words, you guys don't need drugs to trip.

Actually no, just because of people like you who take the greek out of context i turn to Hebrew the supports the NT Greek interpertation.

And he caused h5674 עבר `abar

his children h1121 בן ben

to pass through h5674 עבר `abar

the fire h784 אש 'esh

in the valley h1516 גיא gay'

of the son h1121 בן ben

of Hinnom: h2011 הנם Hinnom

also he observed times, h6049 ענן `anan

and used enchantments, h5172 נחש nachash

and used witchcraft, h3784 כשף kashaph

and dealt h6213 עשה `asah

with a familiar spirit, h178 אוב 'owb

and with wizards: h3049 ידעני yidd@`oniy

he wrought h6213 עשה `asah

much h7235 רבה rabah

evil h7451 רע ra`

in the sight h5869 עין `ayin

of the LORD, h3068 יהוה Yĕhovah

to provoke him to anger. h3707 כעס ka`ac

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...KJV#conc/6

So now you are backing away from the Greek with some Hebrew. Convenient. However.

Nachash means "serpent."

Kashaph means "sorcery," only if it refers to fortune telling or skrying (which it does not, specifically, since the bible, in its towering logic, demonizes such things generically even while it holds up a magician as savior). It would be far better for you to accept that the word most likely means "magic."

Now, what does this most recent sidestep have to do with anything?

(July 1, 2012 at 3:11 pm)Epimethean Wrote: So now you are backing away from the Greek with some Hebrew. Convenient. However.

Nooope. What I said was because of the tired arguement you decided to lead with, I start generally start with the Hebrew to establish the principle about Sorcery being sinful and not general pharmacology. It is the seeking of 'visions and spirits' through drug induced hallucinations that is what is being called a sin. Not using the healing properties of pharmaceuticals. (this is an arguement I generally reserve for the JW, but also works for anyone seeking to take the Greek out of it's historic context and build a translation around the dual meaning of a single word.)

Your argument above makes absolutely no sense. You love to talk about context-and yet, you know neither Greek nor Hebrew. You want to use parentheses to make etymological comments, and yet you don't actually understand etymology at all, which leads to to you running around from language to language throwing out wordtrout while you chant about context.

(July 1, 2012 at 3:39 pm)Epimethean Wrote: Your argument above makes absolutely no sense. You love to talk about context-and yet, you know neither Greek nor Hebrew. You want to use parentheses to make etymological comments, and yet you don't actually understand etymology at all, which leads to to you running around from language to language throwing out wordtrout while you chant about context.

Tell yourself what you like sport, the proof is in the pud'n. You know I think you just now truly got, what i did. you thought you trumped my arguement, when you presented the non contextual greek definations. But I believe you just now realized infact my arguement was plotted a few steps ahead of your own, because it was based on the first OT Command (Hebrew 2chr33) that supported the selective contextual (greek Gal 5:22) That points to Sorcery being sorcery and not general pharmicology (as you would mislead someone to believe.) You paniced and attacked me personally rather than delve any deeper into the 'etymology' you accused me of ignoring. why? perhaps you yourself do not have any more to give on the etymology of the Contextual meaning of the words in question. Or Perhaps you are smart enought to see where this is all leading if you continue to push for an accurate exegesis of Scripture.
Eitherway.... This would be the point where I could turn things and attack you personally, but have decided not to.

You haven't got an "argument" chief, but then again, I suppose, that is mostly what you have to tell yourself. You have no clue about language and yet love to try to use it to further your fundy cause. Word of advice: Take a foreign language course. Start with English.

(July 1, 2012 at 2:15 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 1, 2012 at 2:03 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Thanks for your post Drich. After reading your story about the messenger I was hoping you would give your two cents.

I want to ask you something that might seem irrelevant, but I want to hear from you: can only a Christian be a psychic because they can communicate with saints in heaven?

It's not technically called that, but 'Revelation' has been given to many. We are told in the last days that young men will be given over to prophesy and dream dreams about the future. These 'revelations' were attributed to the Holy Spirit and not any of the saints.

Outside of this we are told to stay from seeking psychic encounters and sorcery (Which translated from the Greek means pharmacologically induced visions/hallucinations) Because these avenues are typically how Satan speaks. the way we can tell between the two messages, is that a 'Messenger/Angel' will have a message supported by contextual scripture found in the Bible. 'Other' messages seem to appeal to one's vanity. In that you have been chosen to do 'X' even though the bible may speak against it. Becareful, and if i miss a thread or post you want me to address just PM me and let me know, I can address it privately or openly it makes little difference to me.

I see. That means by your standards this guy was exactly that, a guy. The reason being that he at one stage randomly went on a tangent about psychics and how they can know so much about someone by speaking to their dead relatives. I can only assume that the connection must have been that psychics are strictly Christians. It's kind of along the line of every religion thinking only they can e.g. talk to God. So if he believes in psychics and communication with spirits I'm assuming this is all within a Christian framework. But you have made it clear no such thing is to be found in the Bible.

As for wanting to address questions I might have, I'll keep in mind your offer. Thanks by the way. I really do appreciate the effort you go through to discuss what I bring up.

(July 1, 2012 at 8:04 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: I see. That means by your standards this guy was exactly that, a guy. The reason being that he at one stage randomly went on a tangent about psychics and how they can know so much about someone by speaking to their dead relatives. I can only assume that the connection must have been that psychics are strictly Christians. It's kind of along the line of every religion thinking only they can e.g. talk to God. So if he believes in psychics and communication with spirits I'm assuming this is all within a Christian framework. But you have made it clear no such thing is to be found in the Bible.

Without specifics, I am not in a position to make that judgment. But know if 'he' was directly telling you to seek the advice of psychic, or seek the advise from the dead then his 'revelation' is not consistent with scripture. Now if he said something like 'he is something like a psychic' his then do not completely dismiss what was said. Take what was said word for word and pair it against scripture. If everything checks out then you have a legit experience. If not move on, and do not be disappointed. For God does speak through messengers, and other times the Holy Spirit will speak to you directly. You just have to be able to identify what is being communicated. We can only do this if we know the Word.

Also know God is not the only spiritually based being who uses 'messengers' to speak to people. Be careful and guard your heart. and remain faithful to God and you will receive what you have been asking and seeking after. Know things/temptations like this test our resolve. In that do we want something so bad we will take whatever is offered, or will we press on to the actual Goal. (Real relationship with God)
This test is not for God, but for you so that you know if you are willing to 'knock' until you get what you truly want or will you only knock until you are given a trifle and told to go away.

Know your decision will depend on how you look at this situation and the others to come. Will you honor what the scripture says and continue to seek God on His terms or will you yield to the appeal to your vanity.

Quote:As for wanting to address questions I might have, I'll keep in mind your offer. Thanks by the way. I really do appreciate the effort you go through to discuss what I bring up.

Your welcome, and I will do my best to answer any question you or anyone else may have.

(July 1, 2012 at 1:33 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Maybe I should have spent more time describing him and why my two friends thought what they thought.

>This guy looked humble and had a very humble car.
>He seemed to hone in on my questions only (I was pushing for arguments that were the least favoured).
>He sat talking to us for half an hour before he got up to see why his food hadn't arrived. When he sat down a waitress brought his change that he forgot. This implies he never ordered in the first place but was merely there to talk to me.

Angels buy cars now? Given their abilities what possible use would they have for a car? My main objection to believing this guy is an angel (besides the whole religion it's based on being very unlikely to be true to begin with) is that there's no reason to believe it.

Facts being consistent with a hypothesis is not the same as facts indicating a particular hypothesis is true. A simplified example might be the disappearance of my shoes when I'm getting ready one morning. Maybe an elf hid them. While the facts are consistent with this hypothesis (i.e., nothing contradicts it), there's nothing about the mere disappearance of shoes that indicates it to be true. Millions of people who own shitty cars go to restaurants everyday. There's nothing particularly remarkable about that unless you're looking for it. Now, I'm not saying that this guy was definitely not an angel -- hell, maybe he was. What I find curious is that angel's identities and miracles in general have become increasingly ambiguous since the Iron Age (you know, back when people's free will was apparently not violated by apparitions of God or angels explicitly identifying themselves as such). Instead, it's become a guessing game which, of course, is itself a testament to God's creativity because he's testing us.

My personal tip would be get the suspected angel's name next time. Or their license plate number. Then you'll be able to test whether they're angels or not. Presumably angels cannot be begotten by humans, although I'm sure a caveat can be added if it suits someone's belief system.