(July 25, 2012 at 2:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 25, 2012 at 12:45 pm)spockrates Wrote: Speaking to those on both sides of the fence separating Protestants and Catholics has only deepened my conviction that either side might be deceived. So how do I choose?

What differences do you speak of?

A few examples: Papal infallibility,praying to saints, indulgences,the mass and transubstaniation. Oh, and a different version of the bible. Idiot.

(July 27, 2012 at 5:09 am)padraic Wrote:

(July 25, 2012 at 2:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote: What differences do you speak of?

A few examples: Papal infallibility,praying to saints, indulgences,the mass and transubstaniation. Oh, and a different version of the bible. Idiot.

No need to call me an idiot for trying to start a discussion. Now that you presented some differences I can address them.
Indulgences as payments for sins no longer exist. They came about when the Pope was a political leader. It was a way to make money with no scriptural backing whatsoever. Indulgences were introduced into theology by secular, greedy men.
Papal infallibility arrived for similar reasons-- to obtain power in a time of political rule. Most Catholics today do not believe in complete infallibility. And it has limits. The Pope cannot overrule any part of the Bible. His word is always beneath scripture, and any disagreement between the two would raise a red flag. 'Infallibility' is really just a measure of authority over the Catholic church. While Papal infallibility has no scriptural basis (and might be unhealthy), it is not a salvation issue. Catholics are not going to hell for believing the Pope's words are true.
Praying to saints- Putting your faith in a saint rather than Jesus Christ is a terrible possibility, but anything less will not result in an expulsion from God's side.
Transubstantiation- I don't see how believing the bread is Christ's body will destroy your relationship with him.
Their own version of the Bible is the normal Bible with notes. The notes are not authoritative. The Apocrypha may be wrongly considered inspired, but as it does not controvert the original Bible it is not a threat to salvation.
The mass is a worship service. Different, but the argument is whether either Protestants or Catholics are 'deceived.' As you probably know, Catholics include more physical aspects in their worship. This take on scripture (such as rosaries and statues) helps some people feel closer to God. Like all scripture put into action, it can be misused and turned into a stumbling block. But if anyone holds the Bible as the highest authority (believing such verses as Ephesians 2:8 and John 3:16), they will be saved. The doctrines of most major Protestant and Catholic churches agree with absolute Biblical authority. Those that don't (Mormonism- Joseph Smith, JWs- Rutherford) are deceived. And they are deceived not by the Bible, but because they do not believe the Bible.

Sigh, Mormons do believe in the bible, jesus christ......

Those things that you don't think are differences are articles of faith, and very important to those that believe in them -and very different from those that don't. You don't agree with them, no surprise there, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they qualify as differences (case in point, your disagreement pretty much nails them down as difference). Ask a Catholic whether or not you have to hold those things as articles of faith to be in the graces of the lord almighty, hmn? Perhaps you are all being "deceived" about biblical infallibility and the Mormons have it right? What an common song and dance, disavow anything that doesn't support your particular interpretation of christ and christianity as you confidently declare who is this or is not that in absolute ignorance of fact.

Quote:Indulgences as payments for sins no longer exist

No ,but the practice of indulgences does. (remission of punishment for sins)

Quote:Papal infallibility arrived for similar reasons-- to obtain power in a time of political rule. Most Catholics today do not believe in complete infallibility

Strawman;the reason is irrelevant. As is your bald assertion about what 'most Catholics believe'. Papal infallibility when the pope speaks 'ex cathedra' remains an article of faith. Rejecting any article of faith is apostasy.The result is automatic de facto excommunication.

Quote:The mass is a worship service

The Mass is THE central ritual of the Catholic faith, nothing less than the re enactment of the Last Super,in which the bread and wine [ is believed] to LITERALLY become the body and blood of Jesus.

Quote:Transubstantiation- I don't see how believing the bread is Christ's body will destroy your relationship with him.

Another strawman. Transubstantiation was a major theological basis of the protestant reformation.

Quote:Praying to saints- Putting your faith in a saint rather than Jesus Christ is a terrible possibility, but anything less will not result in an expulsion from God's side.

Basic difference; having statue at all in a church is seen as idolatry by most protestants. In fact,a saint can only be canonised (declared to be in heaven) after the Church is satisfied that there have been two miracles attributable to the saint's intercession with God. The point of praying to a saint is intercession. Not protestant practice as far as I'm aware

Quote:Their own version of the Bible is the normal Bible with notes. The notes are not authoritative. The Apocrypha may be wrongly considered inspired, but as it does not controvert the original Bible it is not a threat to salvation.

Another strawman; we are discussing differences. The Jerusalem bible is different TRANSLATION. The notes are accepted by Catholic as authoritative. EG Catholics are not literalists nor young earth creationist loons.

If you want to get into a discussion about Catholicism,perhaps ensure you have a fucking clue about the topic. Idiot. (I mean that a sincere observation based on reading many of your posts. not an insult necessarily)


000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Quote:The Jerusalem Bible (JB or TJB) is a Roman Catholic translation of the Bible which first was introduced to the English-speaking public in 1966 and published by Darton, Longman & Todd. As a Roman Catholic Bible, it includes the deuterocanonical books along with the sixty-six others included in Protestant Bibles, as well as copious footnotes and introductions.

The translation

The translation itself uses a literal approach that has been admired for its literary qualities, perhaps in part due to its most famous contributor, J.R.R. Tolkien (his primary contribution was the translation of Jonah).[4] The introductions, footnotes, and even the translation itself reflect a modern scholarly approach and the conclusions of scholars who use historical-critical method. As examples, the introduction and notes reject Moses' authorship of the Pentateuch, as well as the Book of Wisdom having been authored by King Solomon.

The Jerusalem Bible was the first widely accepted Roman Catholic English translation of the Bible since the Douay-Rheims Version of the 17th century. The Jerusalem Bible was also used it in the European liturgy and the Mass. This reference for The Jerusalem Bible can be found in the introduction page of the Roman Catholic Missals as the source reference for the readings. It has also been widely praised for an overall very high level of scholarship, and is widely admired and sometimes used by liberal and moderate Protestants. The overall text seems to have somewhat of a "Mid-Atlantic" nature, neither overwhelmingly British nor particularly American, making it acceptable to both groups in most instances. Overall, it has come to be considered as one of the better English translations of the Bible made in the 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Bible

Thanks for replying, and sorry for taking so long to reply.

(July 26, 2012 at 12:46 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 26, 2012 at 11:39 am)spockrates Wrote: Well, actually, my crisis is one born from uncertainty, rather than doubt. I do not yet have good reason to doubt that the Bible conveys the truth about Jesus--who he is and what he did. It's not what it says about him I doubt; it's what it expects me to do about him that I'm uncertain about. For the Biblical passages regarding salvation are unclear, due to their ambiguous wording.

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
This page has more:
http://deeptruths.com/bible-basics/salvation.html
Do any of these seem ambiguous to you?

Why, yes--the one you quoted is ambiguous! Tell me please, Undeceived: What is this grace of which Paul writes?

Quote:So would you say both Catholics and Protestants are believers? If so, does what one believe about how to get to heaven have nothing to do with becoming such a believer?

Quote:Yes! What is better-- to know how to become righteous, or to actually be righteous?

I'd say that one cannot truly know that she actually is righteous unless she first knows how to become righteous. I'd say wisdom is greater than faith, but do you disagree?

Quote:As long as one repents of their sins and accepts Jesus’ forgiveness they are made white as snow.

So do you think one is saved by grace through faith alone? Or is something else besides faith (such as repentance) required?

Quote:They may have been misled, but salvation is not obtained through knowledge.

Can one know how to become saved without any knowledge of how to be saved?

Quote:If we are in relationship with Jesus Christ, he mediates for us. As Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:2-3 writes, "Those who think they know
something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God." In reality, every denomination is somewhat isolated from the truth. We are mere humans trying to comprehend God's master plan. But time and again Jesus tells us simply to believe. And Paul confirms grace as the only way to heaven. If we are truly fearful of falling out of grace for being "wrong" about how God operates, we are probably saved already.

Yes, grace is God's method, but once more: What is grace? and does Jesus say faith is all that is required to receive this grace that saves us from hell?

(July 25, 2012 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 25, 2012 at 12:45 pm)spockrates Wrote: [quote='Godschild' pid='314778' dateline='1343112553']

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This is where I think many Christians stumble, "how do we know when the Holy Spirit is teaching us."
First I believe Christians are impatient, wanting questions answered in their time and not when God knows best. Patients is truly a virtue and Christians need to understand this and they need to know God will answer through the Holy Spirit when the time is right and I know this from personal experience.
The Holy Spirit will teach us through God's word more than any other way, He will use others to teach and He will use life experiences, but however He teaches it must line up with God's word. When God answers prayer you will know it, just be patient, but always be looking because it could come quickly. When you believe you have heard from the Holy Spirit check what you believe you have heard with the scriptures and if it does not line up with God's word then you have only heard from yourself. Remember you have to ask for the things of God, ask for and through His will, if you do not you will not hear from Him, God does not promise to answer all prayer, this is stated throughout scripture.
You mentioned that you could see where Catholic and Protestant interpretation of scriptures could both be valid and I think I know what your speaking of, but remember this, if the two are in direct conflict with each other someone is wrong, truth can not be on both sides of the same fence.

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spockrates Wrote:Yes, but when it is God's word that is unclear about a topic so important as one's eternal state of existence, what am I to do? It seems my prayer for wisdom has been answered by opening my eyes to the scriptural ambiguities. Rather than making the intent more clear, it has become cloudy--not in that the meaning is vague, but in that it seems impossible to determine which meaning is the truth! Speaking to those on both sides of the fence separating Protestants and Catholics has only deepened my conviction that either side might be deceived. So how do I choose? And if you don't mind my asking, what side did you choose?

I chose God's side, I found the answers in scripture, most of those answers came after salvation, as they do for most people.
Paul tells use that salvation does not come through works, neither does keeping your salvation.

Please tell me where he says this.

Quote:Salvation is through belief in Christ through grace and grace only.

I think you mean to say salvation is by grace, through faith, instead of by faith, through grace. Don't you?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)

But speaking of grace, what exactly would you say it is?

Quote:Works show others of the salvation we have, works help use grow in a relationship with Christ, scripture is very clear about this.

Yes, but is scripture clear that the good things we say, think and do have nothing to do with getting us to heaven? If so, please explain why? For example, why do you believe Ephesians 2 teaches our thoughts, words and deeds are useless to save us from hell?

Quote:I understand that when you study the scriptures things at times become unclear, that's why I said Christians need to be patient and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of God's word. I've had many unclear moments, but in time things were made clear, it's not about our timing it's about God's desire to reveal truth to you when you are ready.

Would you believe that many thoughtful
Catholics (who do not believe as you do about good works) tell me the same? You and they both seek the truth from scripture. You and they both trust the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. Yet you and they disagree about what the Holy Spirit has revealed as the truth about salvation! How can that be? I'd say either you, or they, or both are deceived. So doesn't this mean that trusting the Bible and Holy Spirit does not guarantee freedom from deception?

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(July 25, 2012 at 2:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 25, 2012 at 12:45 pm)spockrates Wrote: Speaking to those on both sides of the fence separating Protestants and Catholics has only deepened my conviction that either side might be deceived. So how do I choose?

What differences do you speak of?

Differences regarding salvation.

(July 27, 2012 at 10:53 pm)spockrates Wrote:

(July 25, 2012 at 4:33 pm)Godschild Wrote: I chose God's side, I found the answers in scripture, most of those answers came after salvation, as they do for most people.
Paul tells use that salvation does not come through works, neither does keeping your salvation.

Please tell me where he says this.

Quote:Salvation is through belief in Christ through grace and grace only.

I think you mean to say salvation is by grace, through faith, instead of by faith, through grace. Don't you?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)

But speaking of grace, what exactly would you say it is?

Quote:Works show others of the salvation we have, works help use grow in a relationship with Christ, scripture is very clear about this.

Yes, but is scripture clear that the good things we say, think and do have nothing to do with getting us to heaven? If so, please explain why? For example, why do you believe Ephesians 2 teaches our thoughts, words and deeds are useless to save us from hell?

Quote:I understand that when you study the scriptures things at times become unclear, that's why I said Christians need to be patient and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth of God's word. I've had many unclear moments, but in time things were made clear, it's not about our timing it's about God's desire to reveal truth to you when you are ready.

Would you believe that many thoughtful
Catholics (who do not believe as you do about good works) tell me the same? You and they both seek the truth from scripture. You and they both trust the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. Yet you and they disagree about what the Holy Spirit has revealed as the truth about salvation! How can that be? I'd say either you, or they, or both are deceived. So doesn't this mean that trusting the Bible and Holy Spirit does not guarantee freedom from deception?

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(July 25, 2012 at 2:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote: What differences do you speak of?

Differences regarding salvation.

Ha ha ha. Take notes boys, because this guy hasn't been here long and he already knows how to do your job better than you do.
Please continue, I have no desire to interrupt this extraordinary turn of events.

(July 27, 2012 at 11:24 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(July 27, 2012 at 10:53 pm)spockrates Wrote: Please tell me where he says this.


I think you mean to say salvation is by grace, through faith, instead of by faith, through grace. Don't you?

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)

But speaking of grace, what exactly would you say it is?


Yes, but is scripture clear that the good things we say, think and do have nothing to do with getting us to heaven? If so, please explain why? For example, why do you believe Ephesians 2 teaches our thoughts, words and deeds are useless to save us from hell?

Would you believe that many thoughtful
Catholics (who do not believe as you do about good works) tell me the same? You and they both seek the truth from scripture. You and they both trust the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth. Yet you and they disagree about what the Holy Spirit has revealed as the truth about salvation! How can that be? I'd say either you, or they, or both are deceived. So doesn't this mean that trusting the Bible and Holy Spirit does not guarantee freedom from deception?

---

Differences regarding salvation.

Ha ha ha. Take notes boys, because this guy hasn't been here long and he already knows how to do your job better than you do.
Please continue, I have no desire to interrupt this extraordinary turn of events.

Feel free to interrupt at any time, my friend! The challenge for the atheist is to show that these ambiguities are reason enough for the Christian to change her mind and stop believing. At least, that's where the discussion thread has led.

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(July 26, 2012 at 1:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hell, they may even be made white and delightsome. Mormons are also saved, correct?

Some Catholics and Protestants would say incorrect. Faith (or trust) is only as good as the object in which it is placed, they might say, and Mormons put their faith in a different Jesus. The Jesus of Mormonism is the spirit brother of Lucifer rather than the God who spoke and created the universe.

I've invited Mormon missionaries into my home and have an aunt who is a Latter Day Saint. I've had good conversations with them and find their beliefs fascinating.

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(July 27, 2012 at 12:53 am)cato123 Wrote: My mother and brother are Mormons. They believe that JC is the redeemer. They include works in addition to just believing which in my opinion is much better than your 'believe' and all will be right creed. Don't get me wrong; in my opinion Mormonism is the same as adding shit to an existing pile of shit...you just get a bigger pile of shit, but you are wrong regarding their works denying them a personal relationship with your god-boy.

Having known many Mormon's I will declare as a generalization, despite the annoying door to door religious salesmen (20 year old elders), that Mormons are mostly a live and let live sort. Their invovlement in Prop 8 politics in California a few years ago is evidence against my claim, but most are polite in public and will not preach. Sometimes I think their mission work isn't so much to convert others as it is to give the devout a first hand look that the rest of the world isn't like them. Given the choice to have a Mormon neighbor or a conventional Christian (as you put it) neighbor, I would much prefer a Mormon neighbor.

Mormonism is a cult, but your views regarding their 'relationship' with your Jesus is false.

Perhaps it is more correct to say the Jesus in whom Protestants believe is different than the Jesus in whom Latter Day Saints believe? If the Jesus in whom someone believes is different from the real Jesus, then the person doesn't have a relationship with the real Jesus, I've heard Protestants say. I suppose the question to ask these Protestants is this: Is it possible to have a relationship with someone one misunderstands? I think, perhaps it is--that is, it is if the misunderstood one exists!



I also have a relative who is Mormon and have spoken to several Mormon missionaries in my home. My experience is that they're kind people, though they tend to trust their personal experiences and perhaps feelings more than logic, from what I've observed.

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(July 27, 2012 at 8:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sigh, Mormons do believe in the bible, jesus christ......

Those things that you don't think are differences are articles of faith, and very important to those that believe in them -and very different from those that don't. You don't agree with them, no surprise there, but that doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they qualify as differences (case in point, your disagreement pretty much nails them down as difference). Ask a Catholic whether or not you have to hold those things as articles of faith to be in the graces of the lord almighty, hmn? Perhaps you are all being "deceived" about biblical infallibility and the Mormons have it right? What an common song and dance, disavow anything that doesn't support your particular interpretation of christ and christianity as you confidently declare who is this or is not that in absolute ignorance of fact.

The Mormons with whom I've spoken say the Bible is accurate insofar as it is correctly transmitted. The inaccuricies are due to issues of transmission rather than translation. They say the Book of Mormon was directly transmitted to their prophet Joseph Smith, so it is more accurate. The difficulty I see with this is that there have been many revisions of the Book of Mormon since it was originally written down. Not sure if these revisions are serious enough to be a real problem for Mormonism.

(July 27, 2012 at 9:50 pm)spockrates Wrote:

(July 26, 2012 at 12:46 pm)Undeceived Wrote: Ephesians 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
This page has more:
http://deeptruths.com/bible-basics/salvation.html
Do any of these seem ambiguous to you?

Why, yes--the one you quoted is ambiguous! Tell me please, Undeceived: What is this grace of which Paul writes?

Ephesians 2:13 adds, "you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ." The grace (as Paul repeats throughout his writings) is shown in Christ's sacrifice. It is his sacrifice which atones for our sins.

Quote:I'd say that one cannot truly know that she actually is righteous unless she first knows how to become righteous. I'd say wisdom is greater than faith, but do you disagree?

I'd say one doesn't have to know they are righteous to be righteous. And the people we speak of do believe they are righteous by Jesus, they just include works too. If they were to phase out Jesus completely and make works the solitary means of salvation they would be in the wrong. Make no mistake-- an individual on this fence is prone to falling on the deceived side. It is hard to keep a balance for and against scripture. The actual doctrine of Catholicism is vague-- it claims Jesus' sacrifice as the one way to God, but then says we should do more to fully open the storehouse of grace given to us. The question of what works, and how much works, and sin and what balance gets us to heaven has never been clear. True Christians will focus on the Jesus part of the doctrine; nonbelievers will decide to 'earn' their way to heaven, in reality not earning anything but an inflated ego. Catholicism tries to satisfy conservatives and liberals alike. They are farther from scripture, but not altogether in the dark. If this concerns you, be assured most Catholic churches weigh in on the salvation by grace side. There is always a movement to make Catholicism more like Protestantism, but politics and pride get in the way. The denomination we should focus on is the Bible. And the Bible highlights grace. Give me any number of verses which you think highlight works and I'll explain them.

Quote:So do you think one is saved by grace through faith alone? Or is something else besides faith (such as repentance) required?

Grace is God's action toward us. Our faith response has two parts: Knowledge of what he did, and a full-minded acceptance of his death/resurrection. Knowledge alone achieves nothing. And one cannot accept what Jesus' death/resurrection means to them without also repenting. Repentance is a byproduct. The Holy Spirit convicts new believers the moment they accept the Good News, and they feel the need to repent (so I've heard). If they do not feel the need to repent, they don't accept Christ.

Quote:Yes, grace is God's method, but once more: What is grace? and does Jesus say faith is all that is required to receive this grace that saves us from hell?

Romans 3:23-26 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood— to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Wages are what you earn. Our sin earns us death, in the way that a homicide brings us the death sentence. Grace is another word for mercy. By showing grace, God does not hold us accountable for our deeds. But to remain perfectly just, He cannot simply write off a pardon. Instead, he sends a sacrifice in our place to take the punishment for us. As Jesus says in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

(July 27, 2012 at 12:37 am)Undeceived Wrote:

(July 26, 2012 at 1:04 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Hell, they may even be made white and delightsome. Mormons are also saved, correct?

If a Mormon (or anyone) does not put their faith in Jesus Christ as their redeemer they are not saved. Mormon doctrine puts most of its emphasis on works, leaving no room for a relationship with Jesus. That's not to say no Mormon is saved, because some do have views closer to conventional Christianity.

What a pompous fucking ass you are! They are no crazier than you with your fucking "relationship" with fucking jesus.

Why don't you try a relationship with reality.